A Question Of Agency?

Humans are notoriously good at fooling themselves, better than they are at seeing objective truth.
Yes, they are. This is why some aforethought seems like a way to avoid accidentally railroading the game. Some GMs might prefer to avoid prep, so they're not tempted to force the fiction toward what they've prepared; others might prefer at least some prep, so they can be ready to improvise based on what the PCs do. I guess my point is that no level of prep makes railroading impossible, and different GMs at different tables will have different preferences/needs.
 

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There is no mention the there being a decision about truthfulness of the NPC at the moment they were providing the information. It was undetermined and later it was determined they were lying. No change has been made, merely additional details have been added.
Well, the full quote was as below:
So, if my players go off in some random direction without asking me about it then that choice was not informed and thus they lack agency because I could just make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better. Sounds fair.

However, if they ask me to provide details about where they might go and I give them info about it, then they have agency because they are informed about the possible consequences of going there. Sounds fair, as long as the info I gave them is correct.

What if the info I give them comes from an in game source, such as an NPC, then later I decide that the NPC was lying and the info they got was wrong. Then I could make up whatever and they wouldn't know any better, but then does that mean they lack agency because of the fact that they made an informed choice based on an in game lie?

I read it as the bold applying even if the info came from a NPC. But, although I think that's a valid interpretation, you're right in that it is not as certain as I was recalling. So my apologies to both you and @Lanefan .

Of course this assumes that no successful attempt to determine whether the NPC was lying was made at the moment. If it had, then the wave function would have collapsed then already.

And I think this largely relates to the point I was making that it all depends on how it was handled in the moment. Were mechanics used at the time? Which NPC was involved and how was this information presented? And so on. I think all these kinds of details would factor into how a GM should handle this kind of situation. As I said earlier, I wouldn't say having a NPC betray the PCs is Illusionism or any other kind of GM Force in and of itself.....it's all in about how it all plays out at the table.

Maybe a better way to put it is that we can always revise the fiction in any way that is needed. We can't revise how things actually played out at the table. Subverting that is what I am warning against, even if the players would be unaware.
 

Okay, this is saying that memorilaizing 2/3rds of a improv session is equivalent to prep + some lesser amount note taking, and that this is the minimum amount of work needed to avoid errors in presenting existing fiction. I'd say this is unplayable if even close to true. After a bare handful of sessions, the depth of notes, either from prep or play, is massive and either requires a constant major effort to collate and review or will itself lead to errors in presentation.
That's just it - if the heavy lifting is done ahead of time there's less (but, alas, still more than no) likelihood of errors creeping in. It's not unplayable, but it can very quickly get unwieldy if not kept on top of.
Given as I don't currently have issues of lots of errors creeping into my games with the light notes I take during play (introduced NPCs, actions taken, etc) I can say your fear is overblown. It has happened, sure, but at the same frequency and kevel of impact from when I had heavy prep.
Which tells me either or both of a) you have a stupendous memory or b) you're nowhere near as concerned with detail and accuracy as I am.

And it's the same if I'm a player: if something in the narration doesn't agree with what we already heard or knew I'm usually the one who flags it.
 

The example was literally what if a NPC told something and it was true and then the GM later decides to reveal it was a lie. It’s about the GM altering what’s established on a whim.

I’m sure that you’ll cite how if the actual status of the information’s truth was not known to the players, then how can their agency be affected....and that’s a relevant question. But it absolutely may be affected (may, not must.....we lack sufficient detail to really say for sure) because of how it was handled in the moment. The mechanics of play that were engaged in that moment cannot be changed as easily as the fiction can to explain away this change.

To give a more specific example, let’s say that in the moment of play when the NPC gives the PCs the information, one of the players asks for some kind of check to determine if it’s true. Now, depending on the game, the result of such a roll could be definitively known to the players, meaning they know if this information is true or not. In other games, perhaps they don’t know if they’ve succeeded; the GM simply says “you think he is telling the truth.”
Either way, because it's been brought up in play I'd say the GM is locked in at that point and would have to do some serious skating in order to change things later. (it also means the GM has been forced to think about it now rather than later)

However, if it wasn't brought up and determined at the time then one could argue the GM is still free to spin it however she likes, provided she has a robust in-game rationale to back it up.
If this information is important to the players [***] so that they can make informed decisions in play, then not letting the results stand is absolutely subverting their agency.

If that doesn’t matter to you, that’s fine....but that doesn’t mean it’s not what’s happening.
Insert "and verified in-fiction as being true" where I put '[***]' and I'd agree.

Without that verification, anything goes. There's nothing saying NPC information ever has to be true. :)
 

I would like to point out that in my own analytical technique this kind of statement is meaningless. There is no 'same place' for them to end up, as DEFINITIONALLY the GM has not created such a place to start with!
Er...sure she has.

In fact, that she has is part of the problem: she's created this 'place'* (either in her mind, or in her notes, or wherever) and is now determined that the PCs are going to get there no matter what they do.

* - which in itself can be anything: a set-piece battle, a mystery clue, a plot-device prisoner, a cool trap, a teleporter to a new land, etc. 'Place' here doesn't mean just an in-fiction physical location.
 

Do characters not act? Do their choices not alter the world they exist in? That sounds like agency to me.

So what exactly is player agency? Player agency is when a player chooses the actions of his character and those actions have an actual impact on the characters world. But this isn't complete because there is also another kind of player agency where the player manipulates the fictional world via meta-rules giving the player often alot of agency over the fiction, but not necessarily agency over their character's actions.

It's this distinction of agencys that cause issues in these discussions IMO.

You seem to be making a distinction between the player characters and the fiction here. Why is that? The PCs are simply one element of the fiction. Yes, they are the most likely to be guided by player decisions, but they are ultimately part of the fictional world. There really is no character agency of the kind we're talking about. The players are guiding the fiction, and the PCs are their main interface for doing so.

I the GM have decided that this NPC who is about to be defeated will appear again, thus I fudge his attack role so he knocks the fighter down and escapes. This is certainly a type of force. It doesn't involve (much) uncertainty about what would have happened had the GM made a different choice, and it doesn't involve any subversion of a player choice at all.

Why does it not? I mean, I see how it may not. As you and @Crimson Longinus go on to comment, sometimes what players want and what their characters want are different things. But probably more often, what they want is in some state of alignment.

So, if you don't mind, I want to look at this a bit more using some examples.

Let's say Mandy is playing Inigo Montoya, and Cary is playing Wesley. The character of Inigo certainly wants revenge against Count Rugen, the six-fingered man who murdered his father. So, when they finally meet in the fiction, Inigo will want to do everything he can to kill Rugen. The player Mandy, however, has no idea what to do with his character after the revenge plays out, so he wouldn't mind at all for this drama to continue, and if Rugen were to escape, he'd be okay with it.

If the GM fudges a roll or uses some other application of force to ensure that Rugen escapes, you think this isn't altering agency; would that be accurate?

Where as with Wesley, his goal is to rescue Princess Buttercup. And we also know that Cary is interested to see what will happen in the game after Wesley does rescue her. So if Wesley was on the verge of rescuing her, and the GM were to somehow fudge a roll or resort to Force to make sure she remained unrescued, you would consider this a subversion of agency, is that right?

If I've followed correctly, then that's interesting. I get why you may hold that stance....as I say above to @FrogReaver , the characters don't have agency, so player desire is the big factor here. I think my only concern is that because the characters are the main means by which the players will cue their desires for play, a GM somehow being aware of less obvious player desires seems less likely. I've certainly had players who have been happy to have their characters suffer temporary failure or setback, but this is always mentioned after the fact. I can't recall any player ever saying to me ahead of time "you know, if my character doesn't avenge his father for a few more sessions, that's fine."

I'm not saying that can't happen or that the GM and players can't have very candid discussions about the goals of play and so on, but that level of awareness of player desire would not be my expectation.
 

say the rumours are both true and the PCs will meet Orcs if they go one way and spiders if they go the other; but in either case they're also going to meet a nasty Druid and his pet Displacer Beasts shortly afterward. What then? The Druid's not on the rumours list and thus the PCs don't know he's out there or where he might be - for all the players know he was rolled on a wandering encounters table.
Whether or not this is illusionism depends on details not provided in the example - eg what did the GM tell to, and/or imply to, the players about the decision-making process.

But it doesn't sound like it involves very much player agency. The GM seems to be deciding what play is going to be about (ie this druid encounter).

Maybe I intended to prep for both orcs and spiders, but my pet iguana ate the MM pages containing the rules fore spiders so now I have only the orc encounter prepped.
It seems that the GM could just tell the players today it's going to be Orcs, because that's all we've got!

Anyway, as the characters arrive to the Gnarly Forest they come upon several slain spiders, and if they investigate they manage to find some arrows of orcish manufacture. But there are no orcs in the Gnarly Forest, and the closest orc settlement in the Grim Chasm is a significant distance away! What are the orcs doing here? This is not just some random orc raiding party, the spiders have nothing of value. Has someone send the orcs here and to what end? So now instead of just one random encounter with orcs on the orc territory, the encounter will now be tied to an emerging sublot. The actions of PCs did affect things, just not in the way they may have anticipated.
This may or may not involve illusionism, ie, a false belief engendered in the players that their choices of action declaration will affect the content of the fiction.

As to whether or not it involves player agency, where does the mystery come from? Why orcs-vs-spiders? If this is all being set up by the GM, there seems to be little or no player agency.

Yes, this is critical. Nearly all the examples I see, of choosing left paths or right paths, of orcs or spiders, fail to examine the real questions of agency such as:
  • Who created the need for my character to travel at all?
  • Who authored where my character needed to go?
  • Who created the reason for my character going there?
  • What is my character going to do when they get there?
Most discussions on the topic implicitly include the answers:
  • The GM
  • The GM
  • The GM
  • The thing the GM says needs doing
In other words, GM force is so heavily presupposed in nearly all the given examples that there's no point engaging them.

Player agency is a loop which has to begin from the first moment of play (or not). From that point on the creation of purpose for the character doesn't change hands - either the player gets to do it explicitly, or the GM does it implicitly.

And if it features agency then play from that point on is, as you describe, a cycle of action declaration and action resolution until the player decides their purpose is achieved or failed or that the character has changed and their purpose has shifted.
Your point about presupposition of GM decision-making is evident, I think, in the examples of the druid-with-displacer-beast, and in the example of orcs-vs-spiders.

A concomitant of that presupposition is a narrow conception of both action declaration and action resolution.

If action declaration is thought of simply as we go to place X, then in a typical map-and-key approach to setting design and travel resolution there will be no player agency. The players move their tokens about the gameboard, but the GM is deciding at each moment of play what actually happens in the game.

As I posted upthread it is possible to use map-and-key techniques in a game that involves player agency, by relying on the phenomenon of time: initial moments of play are low-agency, as the players (metaphorically, at least) turn over the board tiles and learn what is under them; but subsequent moments of play are high-agency, as the players use the information they have acquired to formulate and execute plans for extraction of assets from tiles. Because of the role that time plays in this approach, there are essential constraints that must apply if agency is to be generated and preserved: most importantly, the GM can't change the gameboard once the players start exploring it!

Hence the fundamental conflict between the sort of play I've just described, and a "living, breathing world". Even Gygax fell foul of this contradiction in his published rulebooks for AD&D: his advice in the PHB, under the heading Successful Adventures, presupposes that the dungeon situation is largely static and hence that players can engage in meaningful exploration and planning; but in his DMG he gives advice on how to make dungeons non-static, which will have the effect of rendering the exploration and planning largely meaningless (unless the dynamics unfold in very predictable ways such that the players can account for them in their planning).

The only way I know of to combine a "living, breathing world" with genuine player agency is to expressly or implicitly expand the scope of action declaration: we go to place X to achieve goal Y. And if the GM doesn't just say "yes", then there needs to be a meaningful way of resolving this action declaration.

There are a lot of options here: anything from Wises-checks (as per Burning Wheel), to letting the PCs turn up but framing them into a situation where their goal Y is at stake (my Classic Traveller play often looks like this; so does my Prince Valiant play), to various forms of checks to see how the travel goes relative to the goal (I've done this in Burning Wheel - Orienteering check where the consequence of failure was that a renegade elf had interposed himself between the PCs (who included a rather self-consciously upright elf) and Y - and in Cortex+ Heroic - checks in an action scene to eliminate Scene Distinctions which, if not eliminated, posit that Y has not been attained or remains unattainable), or probably other approaches I'm not thinking of at the moment.

But what is key to all of them is that the players are the ones who are giving content and meaning to the goal Y; and the connection of travel to X in order to achieve Y is up for grabs, in the moment of play, as an outcome of action resolution. And one upshot of all of them is that if the PCs are at X but Y has eluded them, the players know why in both fictional and real-world terms: our negotiations with those sect members didn't work out (failed social resolution); we took too long and lacked sufficient endurance to cross the Bright Desert in good order (failed Orienteering resolution); I guess so-and-so wasn't the good guy I thought he was (this one is from Burning Wheel, and was actually the consequence of a failed Scavenging check in so-and-so's old headquarters); the Nazgul didn't stop us reaching Forochel, but - almost as if there were forces in the world working against us! - the orcs had already made off with the re-discovered palantir (this one was in Cortex+ LotR, with a 2d12 doom pool expenditure to end the scene, made possible because Gandalf's flagrant displays of power to defeat the Nazgul grew the doom pool unusually rapidly); etc.

The other upshot, of course, is that if the players succeed on the relevant checks then the PCs get Y: they destroy the conspirators lab and thereby put an end to the bioweapons plot; they arrive in Cyprus and take their first castle; they catch and defeat the orcs (but don't find the palantir - more Gandalf cutting loose => another 2d12 spent to end the scene); Thurgon and Aramina find Evard's tower north of the Jewel river, where the tales and rumours said it could be found (successful Great Masters-wise check); etc.

If the players establish their PCs' goals, and can - via action resolution - attain them, then in my view the players have agency. The GM is not the sole author of the important parts of the fiction.

But if all the players can do is change some superficial set dressing - we're in the Gnarly Forest, not the Grim Chasm - but everything that matters is decided by the GM (you meet a druid and displacer beast; you defeat them, but an apprentice rises up to keep their evil schemes alive; the orcs are also opposed to the druid's spider minions, but allying with the orcs just causes grief and backstabbing no matter what you do; etc), then it's obvious that the players have no real agency.
 

That's just it - if the heavy lifting is done ahead of time there's less (but, alas, still more than no) likelihood of errors creeping in. It's not unplayable, but it can very quickly get unwieldy if not kept on top of.

It depends on what you mean by heavy lifting. I don't think all that great an amount of effort is needed to run things in a more player-driven, improvised way. I do this in my 5E campaign which is based in Sigil, but which uses pretty much the entirety of D&D lore. Now, I know a good amount of lore for D&D, but there are many people who would put me to shame. And I don't by any means pin down every detail ahead of time. I just use my general knowledge to help guide things. So if the players say they want to go to Waterdeep, I have a rough idea what that entails, and I can present their encounters there accordingly.

On a smaller scale, but along the same lines, when I play Blades in the Dark, the action all takes place in the city of Doskvol. The setting is evocative, but it's actually very loosely defined. The broad strokes are provided....it's industrial, there are several districts divided by canals, there are many factions in the city, etc. But the details of those elements are largely left for the GM and players to determine through play.

What I have in both these instances is a framework on which to lean and which to draw inspiration so that when my players decide what they do, I can have the world respond in a way that matters and makes sense.

There really isn't a strong need to do any significant prep ahead of time.

Which tells me either or both of a) you have a stupendous memory or b) you're nowhere near as concerned with detail and accuracy as I am.

And it's the same if I'm a player: if something in the narration doesn't agree with what we already heard or knew I'm usually the one who flags it.

Not to answer for @Ovinomancer , but for me it's not exactly these things. I have a decent memory and I do take some notes as things are established. So do the players. I rely on them to remind me of things from time to time. They often even craft some of the details we have to make note of.

Detail depends.....I mean, I am not at all worried about a building being 400' by 600' as opposed to 800' by 300'; this is simply not a concern, an error of this kind (if noticed) can just be corrected. That's not the kind of detail our game is concerned with. Accuracy is also not too much of a concern because we know the important stuff, and anything else can be corrected if need be.
 

It seems that the GM could just tell the players today it's going to be Orcs, because that's all we've got!
They could, but that would be boring. Why spoil the magic?

This may or may not involve illusionism, ie, a false belief engendered in the players that their choices of action declaration will affect the content of the fiction.
I'd classify it as a combination of illusionism and improvisation. And I don't consider that to be a bad thing at all.

As to whether or not it involves player agency, where does the mystery come from? Why orcs-vs-spiders? If this is all being set up by the GM, there seems to be little or no player agency.
GM's pretty commonly set up quests and adventures...
 


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