A Question Of Agency?

I can't see how my response is changed by the fact your tastes are fringe. It doesn't change my feeling that treating this as a fringe position is extrapolating beyond the available data. It also doesn't say your making that assumption is insulting; it just says that an argument based on it does not seem well founded.
Then it should be fairly trivial to find counterexamples to show it's not well founded. I love a well constructed argument, and MBC has the experience and longevity to make a case based on his interactions, considering he pretty much only joins in discussions of how games play and has been an outspoken champion of indie games for a long time. Saying his experience doesn't count because it might be wrong isn't a strong position to counter from. And, given the regularity of posts in the 5e forum (and in previous editions) on rules modifications to add in tiers of success and failure, it would appear that many in the mainstream are keen to add such mechanics into their gaming. This doesn't suggest to me that there's a silent majority (or even large minority) that find success with complications to be anathema.
 

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No one's done that. I've said the arguments presented so far are incoherent in that arguing that success with complication is a partial failure means ignoring when it's happening all around you in more traditional play. Not liking that particular iteration of it is, of course, just fine. It bears discussing what makes it different though, which you appear to be shutting down by just making it a preference thing. I can tell you exactly why I hate green beans, for instance (I'm a supertaster, which is anything but super). Saying you don't like it because you it feels like your success is being partially negated is fine -- so long as you can also explain why it's fine when this happens in more traditional play, because it does, all the time.

I'm not so much shutting it down as suggesting you're asking a question that for many, maybe most of the people feeling that way, they could not answer. To use your example, there are foods I dislike that I couldn't not disassemble the reasons for in any useful fashion; I just do (there are also others I very much could answer it about too).

(To make it clear, my own feelings on this are only mildly negative, sufficiently mildly so that digging down to find where it comes from when it doesn't with a conventional game systems is not worth it to me (though I'm unconvinced the situations are as parallel as you're depicting it). But I'm well aware other people feel otherwise).
 

I can't see how my response is changed by the fact your tastes are fringe. It doesn't change my feeling that treating this as a fringe position is extrapolating beyond the available data. It also doesn't say your making that assumption is insulting; it just says that an argument based on it does not seem well founded.

No one has actual hard data at our fingerprints (forgetting for a moment that actual social data is notoriously fraught). If that was the litmus test for discussing things like this, our conversations would by limited to <crickets>.

But the data that we do have is this website being available for the last decade + and many of us here being extremely active participants in that period. If ENWorld (and RPG.Net) isn't a viable cross-section of the non-casual TTRPG gaming base then there can be no such thing.

In the last 8.5 years I've been engaged in damn near every_single_indie game thread there is (either starting it or participating vigorously). I've never seen this position espoused to date until the last several pages of this thread. If anyone else who has been a participant in this thread who is a very long term, tenured poster has contact with this ( @pemerton , @Lanefan , @Ovinomancer , @AbdulAlhazred , @chaochau , @Campbell , @Bedrockgames , @darkbard , @hawkeyefan ), I would love to hear about it and how much actual contact they've had with it if they have.

Seems odd to me (someone who has an encyclopedic knowledge of all of the various complaints about indie games and could list them in a moment's notice) that this one would have somehow escaped me and/or not stuck with me.
 

No one has actual hard data at our fingerprints (forgetting for a moment that actual social data is notoriously fraught). If that was the litmus test for discussing things like this, our conversations would by limited to <crickets>.

But the data that we do have is this website being available for the last decade + and many of us here being extremely active participants in that period. If ENWorld (and RPG.Net) isn't a viable cross-section of the non-casual TTRPG gaming base then there can be no such thing.

In the last 8.5 years I've been engaged in damn near every_single_indie game thread there is (either starting it or participating vigorously). I've never seen this position espoused to date until the last several pages of this thread. If anyone else who has been a participant in this thread who is a very long term, tenured poster has contact with this ( @pemerton , @Lanefan , @Ovinomancer , @AbdulAlhazred , @chaochau , @Campbell , @Bedrockgames , @darkbard , @hawkeyefan ), I would love to hear about it and how much actual contact they've had with it if they have.

Seems odd to me (someone who has an encyclopedic knowledge of all of the various complaints about indie games and could list them in a moment's notice) that this one would have somehow escaped me and/or not stuck with me.
Nope, new to me here.
 

Now this?

THIS is the overwhelmingly majority position held by TTRPG players. This is not niche. My position (and others like me) is niche.

For what its worth, some degree of it is okay with everyone I play with, but there's some matter of degree.

But my issue with all of these aspects of play (system, emotional states of being - including jarred/agitated, GM techniques + action resolution = level of agency) is how impervious they seem to be to analysis from the greater community. There is this censorious impulse/offense-taking toward evaluating why/what/how a thing is. Its mystifying. I think two big factors are (a) profound cultural gatekeeping toward the status quo and (b) its because there is a powerful undercurrent of "its art, not engineering" among the GMing community whereby deep analysis feels like a perversion of the aesthetic (obviously I couldn't disagree more).

For what its worth, I'm all on board analysis of why some things work and others don't. That's not been my issue in the responses I have responded to, but with some of the priors assumed in the analysis.
 

Let me just say one final thing on this before signing off (as I'm trying to jog my memory banks).

What we have seen and have seen decried (as it should be) is extremely relevant the OP's premise and agency:

GM adjudicating Success With Complications poorly (even if not willfully so) such that their adjudication negates/doesn't honor the PCs earned success aspect of the equation.

User error and "Agency Deprivation 101".

That? That has absolutely been a thing that the community has discussed and broken down in detail to help GM's to better and more consistently make rules-abiding decisions that are simultaneously dynamic, interesting, provocative.

If, perchance, someone played a game that featured Success With Complications and their GM inconsistently adjudicated things (such that success was negated arbitrarily, even if by accident), I could 100 % see how their takeaway after some play exclusively under this GM may be ("this mechanic doesn't seem like it works...").
 

Then it should be fairly trivial to find counterexamples to show it's not well founded.

Nope. Because this an area where there is simply not enough data to say it is or isn't. But "you can't prove X" is not a good argument intrinsically for "it's not-X". What it says is that any argument using either one as an important element in analysis is weak.

I love a well constructed argument, and MBC has the experience and longevity to make a case based on his interactions, considering he pretty much only joins in discussions of how games play and has been an outspoken champion of indie games for a long time. Saying his experience doesn't count because it might be wrong isn't a strong position to counter from. And, given the regularity of posts in the 5e forum (and in previous editions) on rules modifications to add in tiers of success and failure, it would appear that many in the mainstream are keen to add such mechanics into their gaming. This doesn't suggest to me that there's a silent majority (or even large minority) that find success with complications to be anathema.

Good for you.
 

I'm not so much shutting it down as suggesting you're asking a question that for many, maybe most of the people feeling that way, they could not answer. To use your example, there are foods I dislike that I couldn't not disassemble the reasons for in any useful fashion; I just do (there are also others I very much could answer it about too).

(To make it clear, my own feelings on this are only mildly negative, sufficiently mildly so that digging down to find where it comes from when it doesn't with a conventional game systems is not worth it to me (though I'm unconvinced the situations are as parallel as you're depicting it). But I'm well aware other people feel otherwise).
I don't find this persuasive, though. This is a discussion about how things work, and therefore preferences are fair game to be challenged and analyzed -- largely because you can't fully understand a game until you understand your own preferences. I get this may not be something a person is inclined or willing to do, but if that's the case, why engage at all? @prabe seems to be willing to discuss. I'm fine with @prabe deciding at the end of the day that they don't like a thing, as I am with you, but I'm going to challenge a statement that something is not liked in one context but enjoyed in a slightly different context. If the response is that the context is the key, I get that, but it's at least looking at the situation and evaluating your approach, which is helpful for both you and the discussion to key in on similarities and differences and analyze those for a better understanding, each to own, what makes a game work better.
 

(I still don't actually know anything about Traveller. Space something probably...)

<snip>

Furthermore, in most games in these sort of "I see if I can find any guns/drugs/etc" situations the Gm is perfectly within their rights to just say "no, this is not sort of place they can be found at." I.e. the GM actually determines whether the thing is present, the player determines whether their character manages to find it.
I don't know what you have in mind with "in most games of these sort". Do you mean D&D circa mid-80s onwards? Vampire? CoC?

Classic Traveller ("Science-Fiction Adventure in the Far Future) doesn't anywhere state the GM is perfectly within their rights to just say no. The rule is the one I quoted: the referee should set the throw required. This is just one manifestation of how Classic Traveller (1977 version) supports high player agency RPGing. (I am deliberately citing the publication date because there were changes in later versions to make it more like "most games of these sort". That's one reason I prefer the 1977 vesrion.)

1977 Classic Traveller doesn't anywhere have a single definitive statement of the referee's role - that's a contrast with the editing/presentation of (say) Apocalypse World or Burning Wheel. But when you read through the books you can actually put together a fairly clear list of referee responsibilities:

* The referee adjudicates action resolution, by setting throws required (following and building on the rules and subsystems presented) and establishing consequences;

* There is quite an elaborate system for random encounters (both onworld and in space) but the referee is entitled to also introduce non-random encounters where s/he wants to, in order to reflect the established fiction, present situations and drive the action;

* The referee manages NPCs, having regard to their skills and abilities and the results of throws on the reaction table;

* The referee may introduce new technology or equipment beyond the lists, and may create star systems, worlds and ecologies deliberately rather than using the random generation methods that are presented.

There are also a couple of referee "options":

* The referee can generate a star map in advance; but the game also expressly supports more "spontaneous" creation of the star map on an "as-needed" basis;

* The referee may indicate possible quests using various "in fiction" devices (eg rumours, patrons, the ship's Library program) for signalling these possibilities.

The game is also explicit about the importance of referee-player collaboration. From Book 3:

* "At times . . . combinations of features [of randomly generated worlds] may seem contradictory or unreasonable. Common sense should rule in such cases; either the players or referee will generate a rationale which explains the situation, or an alternative description should be made."

* "A group involved in playing a scenario or campaign can make their adventures more elaborate, more detailed, more interesting, with the input of a great deal of imagination. . . . Above all, the referee and the players should work together. . . . the situation is not primarily an adversary relationship. The referee simply administers rules in situations where the players themselves have an incomplete understanding of the universe. The results should reflect a consistent reality."

It's not part of the referee's job to decide, prior to a Streewise check made to find someone who will sell illegal guns at a good price, to decide whether or not there is such a someone to be found.

existence of general type of a person or good and existence of an unique specific thing you made up are rather drastically different things

<snip>

You have some sort of weird category error going on here. These are completely different sort of things. If your character decides to attack the orc, you don't get to decide what the orc does, the GM decides that. And whether that orcs attempts to defend (assuming that the GM decides that this is what they do) is represented via some passive number such as in D&D or via some active roll like in many other games really does not affect that. That is completely different than narrative level ability to summon towers into being! Can you really not tell the difference between deciding the actions of your character and deciding things about the world, external to your character?
You assert these differences. I'm sure they're important to you. I don't really feel the force of them.

If there exists someone willing to sell illegal guns at a good price, it follows that there exists a unique specific person in a particular place willing to engage in that activity.

The impersonal framing in Traveller mostly reflects that - as the name of the game suggests - the PCs are travellers through the universe. The Streetwise rules address this head-on by saying (Book 1) that "local subcultures . . . tend to be the same everywhere in human society" so that the ability is a portable one.

The personal framing in the Burning Wheel scenario I described, conversely, mostly reflects the fact that asking the referee Do I know anything about local wizard's towers? is incredibly non-immersive (the only time I've ever had to ask someone else to tell me what it is that I know is when I had a (thankfully) brief period of amnesia), whereas asking Am I right to think that we're in the neighbourhood of Evard's tower? actually inhabits my character's mental space. Burning Wheel is not a game that focuses on strangers in strange lands. Connections and relationships are an important part of the game.

As far as the difference between knowing and finding things and circumventing Orc shields, they both involve interaction between the character and the broader (fictional) world. When my PC attacks an Orc, it is the Orc who decides whether and how to defend, who instigates the causal process that might result in my attack being blocked, etc. That process interacts with the process my PC initiates - of attacking the Orc with a sword.

When my PC's sidekick contemplates the location of Evard's tower, it is Evard and his assistants who have decided whether or not to build a tower, and where. That process interacts with processes that are internal to my character - like having heard rumours of Evard's tower and its location, and now trying to accurately recall those stories.

It's sheer dogma to insist that one set of processes "naturally" lends itself to all being settled on the player side (via a to-hit roll against static AC) while the other "naturally" lends itself to being settled in some different fashion (GM makes an unconstrainted prior decision, and then has the player make a roll to determine whether or not that decision is communicated to the player). RuneQuest is a RPG that has been around for a pretty long time and handles the shield issue differently from how D&D does - it uses checks to model both processes. Classic Traveller has also been around for a pretty long time, and it handles the person and place issue much the same as D&D handles the Orc shield issue.

I understand that a lot of players seem to prefer to play RPGs where they learn their PCs' memories and experiences by having the GM narrate them to them in a 2nd person fashion. It puzzles me that anyone would find this very immersive (unless playing an amnesiac!), but there's no accounting for differences of taste.

But those matters of difference and taste don't really bear upon the actual analysis of the mechanical approaches and the principles that govern them.
 

Nope. Because this an area where there is simply not enough data to say it is or isn't. But "you can't prove X" is not a good argument intrinsically for "it's not-X". What it says is that any argument using either one as an important element in analysis is weak.



Good for you.
I didn't ask you to prove not-X -- that would be silly. I asked you to show any evidence that thinking of success with complication as failure is even relatively prevalent. There's lots and lots of discussions about success with complications or even tiers of success, so this isn't a case of not-X, it's a case of any-X.
 

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