A Question Of Agency?

There is a fundamental divide about what player agency means here. I think for Pemerton it means being able to shape the story, whereas I suspect for you (like me) it has more to do with freedom to operate freely in the setting (but not to shape or control things typically held under the GMs prevue: for example what threat lies in yonder cave). You guys can debate the meanings of the term agency all day long, but I think in the end it boils down to you have different preferences and something that is seen as a moral good in gaming (player agency) is being vied for to win a discussion about play style. These kinds of arguments are generally why I am wary of internet forum gaming discussions, or at least wary of the rhetoric we tend to encounter on them.

On the topic of D&D, generally I don't think most groups assume the player can set things like plot details, monsters, etc by front loading a skill roll with a statement like "I use gather information to find news about the lich queen" (when the GM has made no mention of the lich queen). I think a more standard use would be "I use gather information to find out if there is a Lich Queen" (oddly specific but doesn't have a player inventing a detail that would normally be up for the game master to make). Not sure if that is what Pemerton was arguing though.
Yes, definitely. And I don't think that one approach is objectively better, I just know what I like. But Pemerton does seem to think that one of these approaches is required for player agency whilst at the same time being unable to recognise what the difference between the approaches actually is, so I am a tad perplexed... 🤷‍♀️
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Loss of Agency is taking the players ability to change things away from them. Fudging a die roll because I've overtuned the encounter or undertuned the encounter doesn't prevent them from doing anything they decide to do. Now if I'm fudging rolls to force them to do something I want them to do or railroad the encounter to a predetermined end, or control how the fight ends, sure that's taking agency. Fudging a roll in combat to fix DM Human error's doesn't take away agency anymore than deciding if they fight a monster they can't possibly beat or just throwing an orc at them.

By that logic if I screw up and throw a monster at them that they can't possibly damage in a situation where they can't run away, dropping some of the monsters special abilities that the party doesn't know about so the fight can possibly be won would be taking away their agency. I'd argue it would be giving it back. If DM isn't allowed to adjust as the game goes on he's irrelevant and shouldn't be there. Might as well play a video game.

Most of these discussions seem to assume the DM never makes a mistake and any change in combat or too a die roll is taking control away from the players.
I think that @Ovinomancer addresses your point cogently enough.
 

go to the Paizo 2e forums and read all the discussions on magic. Partial success is ok sometimes but I completely agree that if it's a normal thing it begins to feel like failure that you can't completely suceed.
"Partial success" is not a thing in PF2. It's success and critical success, much in the same manner as a hit and a critical hit. Or are we now gonna argue that a hit now constitutes "partial failure" when critical hits exist?
 

I don't get this at all. The sample of play shows a player solving a problem for her PC (by dispatching the intruders with her pain wave projector, violation gloves and a chainsaw).
That's resolving an encounter (or a situation) not solving a problem. The "problems" I had in mind were more what are on the MC's Fronts, and--it seems to me--complications would accrue so quickly and in such large amounts that those Fronts would tick to their conclusion/s without the PCs being able to do anything about it.
 

I too can't recall any previous discussions wherein folks claim that success with a complication feels indistinguishable from failure.
Well, I'm clearly weird (which I knew).

Let me try this formulation: "Success" is "getting what you want, and not what you don't." "Complicated success" by adding something the player/character didn't want, turns success into failure.

I have been turning things over in my head, thinking about this, and I have further come to realize that a resolution mechanic that A) had greater odds of uncomplicated success and B) allowed the player/character to choose to accept a complication-esque consequence to turn failure into success would bother me a good deal less. I'm sure a game exists with such mechanics, I just can't bring any to mind at the moment.
 

I will admit that I find this reaction to the game perplexing. IME, it's an atypical one as I don't think that I've ever heard people read the PbtA family of games and say "everything was so tightly constrained" when it comes to world interaction, as the game lives and dies by the principle @Ovinomancer outlines ("the fiction must flow from the fiction") as well as "say yes or roll the dice." That said, I could see from this how you may prefer games like 3e and/or PF2, where action outcomes are more delineated for each skill or action. Though in the case of PF2, it has introduced critical failure, failure, success, and critical success to the mix of outcomes for even things like spells and skills. I think a lot of the desire or motivation for adding complicated success to increasingly more games is not to create "partial failure," but, rather, to add "at least some success."
I will admit that a system like PF2 that has a range of outcomes (extreme failure/failure/success/extreme success) bothers me a good deal less than one that tries to mix failure and success, and I'll admit that I'm enjoying the heck out of 5E at the moment. Which is probably more confirming your suspicions than anything else.
 

I don't doubt you for a moment, but looking at the rules for AW (and BitD, which you don't mention) it seemed to me as though I'd be playing (not GMing, playing) in a metaphorical straightjacket. It just seemed as though everything was so tightly constrained, and there wasn't any world to push against or grab onto so reactions to my actions seemed wildly unpredictable--and if I can't predict the reactions, the actions themselves feel random to me.

All of that aside from my strong distaste for way games of that broad type lean so hard on complicated success, which I perceive as partial failure.
As I've stated a few times, the difference between a 5e game and a DW game (as examples) is focus and authorial control. We start a 5e campaign, the GM gives us a handout that states what the basic situation is and what sort of PC options exist. We start a DW campaign, we discuss possible campaign premises and develop an idea of what the initial steading is like, our characters and their bonds, etc. In either case we then create the actual characters. Now, I usually play D&D with people I know pretty well and we usually do something similar to what DW explicitly calls out, but it is notable that 5e doesn't even mention this topic at all. It is rather left up in the air how a game starts and who's input goes into that. I have the feeling 5e kind of assumes maybe the game just starts with a module being unwrapped.

From there, if we examine the 5e and DW materials, DW's text, particularly the section dedicated to the GM, is almost entirely focused on describing the GM's principles and agenda, and how those drive player-focused story/narrative. The advice and process here are QUITE specific, structured, clear, and get reinforced constantly throughout the text. Where 5e talks about how the mechanics are structured around 'regulating what happens'. 5e's perspective includes some discussion of story considerations and how the player's input can be taken into account, but mechanically it is all about how to adjudicate events. Where DW doesn't really even have a combat system, per se, and simply talks about a 'fiction first' kind of action resolution, 5e has a detailed wargame-like procedure. Fiction in 5e is there, but as a series of exceptions and elaborations of a basic core combat mechanic that is only related to fiction to the extent decided by the GM.

In both games players obviously decide what their PCs DO. In both games the GM has a significant role in determining what happens next, how the world reacts. 5e comes from and continues a tradition that includes 'fair referee' (IE generate the world's reactions to things based on what would 'really happen' or what 'seems realistic') and also 'storymaster' (this is the 2e story game admonishment which amounts to 'use GM force to get the story to work'). Note that in DW the story could be generated by the GM (as fronts) but the agenda states flatly that the story must be about the PCs and center on them, and that the player's input in terms of what they try to do should help drive things and shape what fronts are created, which are dropped, how the dooms play out, etc. The D&D story is sort of just implicitly a map and other world elements that the GM manages.

For example: We played a 5e campaign for a while in which I outlined and discussed with the GM how my character could establish a territory, a stronghold, and achieve various goals. The other players at least supplied plot hooks in terms of background and motivations as well. During play the GM put us through various adventures, and often we devised 'missions' for ourselves that related to our various agendas, although generally they were also shaped by what adventures the GM had available. This seems fairly typical to me. Whenever the GM's existing world details worked against this agenda, we would kind of get stuck. Although my character started to create a stronghold there was a lot of logistics and whatnot that kept getting in the way. Eventually we got sent on a mission by the GM and while we were gone some NPCs wiped out the whole operation. I guess this was 'realistic' maybe? I dunno. It definitely came across as "what was already established was taken away." There wasn't a process where my character staked his castle against some other goal, he just left for a few days and when he got back everything was undone.

I have to believe that a DW version of this campaign would have been a lot more focused on the matter at hand. Instead of a lot of the game being driven by "this is the module I have today, lets run it" the game would stay tightly focused on the PC's story goals. Things would not be taken away once they were gained, but instead situations would arise where they could be risked against either conflicting goals or further gains. Perhaps a Doom Clock would be ticking in the background which would involve a building monumental threat, which might wipe out the PCs entirely in principle. However, its portents would be clear and the story would be about how the PCs overcame the adversity, not a sort of simulation of what 'realistically' happened. Remember, the DW GM is a FAN OF THE PCS! Challenges to the PCs agendas are intended to give them a way to shine, or possibly go down in a blaze of glory, not to simply enact some GM master campaign meta plot.
 

For example: We played a 5e campaign for a while in which I outlined and discussed with the GM how my character could establish a territory, a stronghold, and achieve various goals. The other players at least supplied plot hooks in terms of background and motivations as well. During play the GM put us through various adventures, and often we devised 'missions' for ourselves that related to our various agendas, although generally they were also shaped by what adventures the GM had available. This seems fairly typical to me. Whenever the GM's existing world details worked against this agenda, we would kind of get stuck. Although my character started to create a stronghold there was a lot of logistics and whatnot that kept getting in the way. Eventually we got sent on a mission by the GM and while we were gone some NPCs wiped out the whole operation. I guess this was 'realistic' maybe? I dunno. It definitely came across as "what was already established was taken away." There wasn't a process where my character staked his castle against some other goal, he just left for a few days and when he got back everything was undone.

I have to believe that a DW version of this campaign would have been a lot more focused on the matter at hand. Instead of a lot of the game being driven by "this is the module I have today, lets run it" the game would stay tightly focused on the PC's story goals. Things would not be taken away once they were gained, but instead situations would arise where they could be risked against either conflicting goals or further gains. Perhaps a Doom Clock would be ticking in the background which would involve a building monumental threat, which might wipe out the PCs entirely in principle. However, its portents would be clear and the story would be about how the PCs overcame the adversity, not a sort of simulation of what 'realistically' happened. Remember, the DW GM is a FAN OF THE PCS! Challenges to the PCs agendas are intended to give them a way to shine, or possibly go down in a blaze of glory, not to simply enact some GM master campaign meta plot.

Ultimately the issue here seemed to be more about differing expectations than the system being used. Now certainly systems can communicate some expectations so in that sense they can be part of establishing shared expectations, but generally I feel that trying to fix people issues with rules is not the most effective approach.
 

I will admit that a system like PF2 that has a range of outcomes (extreme failure/failure/success/extreme success) bothers me a good deal less than one that tries to mix failure and success, and I'll admit that I'm enjoying the heck out of 5E at the moment. Which is probably more confirming your suspicions than anything else.
Again, I don't think that complicated success necessarily mixes "failure and success." It adds complications and consequences.

For example, let's take the Wizard in Dungeon World who Casts a Spell:
Cast a Spell (Int)
When you release a spell you’ve prepared, roll+Int.

✴ On a 10+, the spell is successfully cast and you do not forget the spell—you may cast it again later.

✴ On a 7-9, the spell is cast, but choose one:
-You draw unwelcome attention or put yourself in a spot. The GM will tell you how.
  • The spell disturbs the fabric of reality as it is cast—take -1 ongoing to cast a spell until the next time you Prepare Spells.
  • After it is cast, the spell is forgotten. You cannot cast the spell again until you prepare spells.
How is 7-9 "partial failure"? You succeed with the spell. But now you have a choice of the consequences. Taking an ongoing penalty isn't failure. Drawing attention to yourself is something the GM would likely do anyway in a game like D&D. Forgetting the spell is not far removed from Vancian casting and forgetting or casting a spell and losing the spell slot regardless of whether it succeeds or not. But not all of these happen to you. So if you are more failure averse, then choose to forget the spell or draw unwelcome attention to yourself. But I'm not clear how this would necessarily constitute partial failure when the spell cast still succeeds on a 7-9. Do you view yourself as a partial failure in D&D when your spell causes the monster to consider you a threat or look your way? That would be news to me as most people see it as a natural consequence of the fiction. Or losing the spell cast until next spell preparation? Sounds like a typical adventuring day in D&D. Is this now a partial failure too?

So I am confused about the "failure" part about added consequences or complications. What makes it "failure"? How would goblins surrounding you be "partial failure" when you went charging into the goblins by your agency? I'm just not clear how narrative complications translate to failure? Because success still happens. Success is never invalidated with a 7-9. NEVER. I apologize if this is coming across aggressively, but I'm having my own hurdle trying to understand how complicated success constitutes a "partial failure".
 

It's all about perception. For some people not working as expected or not being optimal is a failure. Those people want it to "Succeed" or "Fail" adding a mini game in the middle that makes it all a sliding scale of fail to absolute success is not fun for those people.

Some people want it to be "complicated" which they generally refer to as "more realistic" for those people that's a good fit. I've generally found over the years that most people want their games to be fail or succeed on checks, all that other complication just annoys them. Obviously that's just my experience not sure if that's the norm or not.
 

Remove ads

Top