A Question Of Agency?

My feeling is that the scale of decisions doesn't really bear on the question of agency, much. So I align with @pemerton, and I think @Manbearcat in terms of putting the axis of agency primarily on which areas of game process the players are able to participate. If their input is strictly limited to whatever their characters could do, then that is not agency over the content or direction of play.
This is such a weird thing to say. It is like saying that the actions the main character takes have no influence to the direction of the story. This is obviously not the case.

And what bugs me about this discussion is that people just lump all games where the players do not have formal, rule-backed meta control into one category, whilst in reality that is the vast majority of all games being played. There are massive differences in how agency is handled and manifests within that category.

Now, if you want to keep a segregation between 'in character' and other forms of player participation, I could see designing a game where the two processes happen in distinct phases. I don't know of a game which works this way, but they may, and certainly could, exist. I think that goes beyond what we're doing in this thread. Maybe we can have a think about that sometime. I like game design discussions, though most of them usually seem stuck in 1980's notions of game structure!
Isn't this just playing the game traditionally from in-character perspective and then chatting after the game what was cool and interesting and the GM taking that into account for the future? (And I'm stuck to 90's at most, though more likely to noughties!)
 

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there seems to me to be a huge difference in that real life is simply something that IS, we don't accept it or not accept it. There isn't another real life down the road we can go play in.

RPGs are clearly very different. I don't have to play in your game if you run it in such a way that I have no input into the various elements making it up beyond telling you how my PC moves his arms legs, and lips. I can go play in @pemerton's game where I can do other things. Since it is a pastime, I would do exactly that, probably. Life isn't a pastime.
The purpose is not to be particularly realistic, but yes, the purpose is to create an illusion of an alternate reality and an alternate life in it. This doesn't mean it cannot be an interesting and dramatic part of someone's life in and world where weird things happen. The purpose is for the player to use agency in similar(ish) manner than a person in real life would.
Both these posts assume a contrast between playing RPGs and living real life that make no sense to me.

Playing RPGs is a part of real life. As AbdulAlhazred says, it's a pastime that real people engage in. The way I exercise agency in RPGing is just the same as I exercise agency in any other activity I engage in: I make choices and act on them. Of course it's less like (say) digging a hole and more like (say) playing backgammon or writing a story. But just as we can talk about the amount of agency a boardgame player enjoys (contrast, say, snakes and ladders with chess played be a skilled player) or a writer enjoys (contrast, say, a writer of advertisement copy, or of boilerplate contracts, with Toni Morrison or Patrick White), so we can talk about the amount of agency a RPG player is able to exercise.

This is an analysis of (one part of) real life; it is not in contrast with it.
 


I'm not sure I believe you. You can just say that it is a silly comparison if you think so, instead of pretending to not understand what was meant.
Who you believe is your prerogative. But it makes no sense.

Playing a RPG is part of real life. Exercising agency in playing a RPG is like exercising agency in any other part of life - other games, and other writing endeavours, are the obvious points of comparison.

You seem to want to say that if a player has no agency because the GM decides everything, that is like real life because the character's fate is being determined by external forces. But that's just confused. Incoherent. It's a category error. The character's fate is determined, in the fiction, by whatever happens there. The authorship is undertaken, in the real world, by the GM.

If you want to articulate a conception of RPGing as puzzle-solving - in the sense of the players triggering GM narration and learning what is in the GM's notes - then talk about that, without category error.
 

You seem to want to say that if a player has no agency because the GM decides everything, that is like real life because the character's fate is being determined by external forces. But that's just confused. Incoherent. It's a category error. The character's fate is determined, in the fiction, by whatever happens there. The authorship is undertaken, in the real world, by the GM.
People in real life have agency over their lives. They however cannot affect the external world except via their actions. In a game where the player cannot affect the external game world except via the actions of their character, they have the similar sort of agency over the life of their character, than they do have over their own life in reality. This is a perfectly clear concept and seems that everyone else understood it just fine, even though they might not have agreed that aiming for this level of agency is desirable in an RPG.

If you want to articulate a conception of RPGing as puzzle-solving - in the sense of the players triggering GM narration and learning what is in the GM's notes - then talk about that, without category error.
I really don't know what this fixation with puzzles is.
 

People in real life have agency over their lives. They however cannot affect the external world except via their actions. In a game where the player cannot affect the external game world except via the actions of their character, they have the similar sort of agency over the life of their character, than they do have over their own life in reality.

This here is why your comparison is fraught. You make assumptions about what real life is that are not demonstrably supportable and then extend the analogy to a game with finite structures.
 

I know the lockdowns of 2020 have been hard on us all, but are you really out of pen(cil)s and paper at your house to write these things down?
If I'm writing, I'm neither talking nor listening - which means if I'm the GM the game would progress very much in a stop-start manner - something would be introduced into the fiction, then there'd be a hard stop while I wrote it down in enough detail to be useful (maybe years) later.
But IME, it happens less than you would think because players also like having a consistent world too, and they can use their own brains to help you remember. A group doesn't have to be a solo act.
In theory this is true, and would be nice.

In practice I find it causes arguments when people's memories disagree over important details.
Ideally rules should help facilitate game play in a meaningful way. This seems true no matter what sort of game that I'm playing, whether it's a card game, a board game, a video/computer game, sports, or a tabletop roleplaying game. I do not want to play a game despite the rules, but, rather, because of them.
In just about all cases other than RPGs I'd agree with you. But I see RPG rules as different, in that they're both changeable by the participants and are in many cases presented as soft guidelines rather than hard-and-fast rules.

Some RPGs (e.g. 3e D&D, PF1) try to lean in to a hard-rule-for-everything approach; and while this might work for purely gamist concerns it rather fights against creativity and imagination, in that it's far too easy both as player and GM to fall into the trap of "If there's not a rule for it, you can't try it".
 

This here is why your comparison is fraught. You make assumptions about what real life is that are not demonstrably supportable and then extend the analogy to a game with finite structures.
You think that you you have narrative-level meta control of your life in the real life? Or perhaps that you have no agency in the real life? The latter of course if perfectly possible in a sense that free will could be an illusion, but in that case no agency could exist in a game played by individuals lacking free will either, so whole point is moot. The former seems exceedingly unlikely.
 

Like I said, though, you can do it regardless of if this door is trapped or not. I mean, it ultimately is a matter of preference, but given how concerned you are with boring the players in other ways, I’d assume sitting around talking about a door would be something you’d like to keep brief.
As long as they're talking in-character I'd never want to curtail it.
Even Tolkien handled his door puzzle relatively quickly in the actual narration, though it supposedly took hours in the story.
Where had that been part of an RPG where Frodo etc. were all PCs I'd expect all of it to be played out, at least in terms of everyone's ideas and possible solutions and so forth. This is where play of an RPG differs from reading a book or watching a film; particularly as in an RPG the party in this case would be free to make other choices (e.g. go somewhere else, or abandon the mission, or whatever) absent knowledge of the future, while in the book Tolkein already knows what the future holds and just has to get there.
But why? What I don’t understand is the immediate assumption that something’s boring just because it has to do with someone else’s character.

Like this necromancer story you have....I imagine the PC who has the book finds this situation compelling in some way. Is everyone else bored with it?
In this case I don't have to worry about that, as it's a one-player game! :)
Stories are interesting or boring independent of being connected to one’s character, I’d expect. Do the players really begrudge someone else getting a little more focus as a reason to check out?
Often yes, IME.

It's not that someone's getting more focus in itself, though, it's what that focus is on. If a single PC is off scouting for the party and thus all the focus is on her then everyone's cool with it. But if a single PC is playing out his family drama that has nothing to do with the party, then yeah...it's check-out time. :)
Honestly it sounds like a lot more work. The world doesn’t “run itself”. You have to actively track and/or narrate all that stuff. Maybe you have a system in place that makes this relatively easy....Blades in the Dark kind of does that by tracking the progress of different factions’ goals during downtime. The GM can just assume a certain amount of progress, or can make a quick fortune roll and track it according to the result. But even with this in place, they recommend only doing it for factions that have become relevant to play.
It's more work up front before the campaign starts, no question there - but (to use one of my favourite phrases) it's work I only have to do once. The payoff is that it means less work later during actual play.
So a question comes to mind....do you consider the consistency of the fiction to be more important than the players’ enjoyment of the time spent playing?

I know they need not be mutually exclusive, but if it comes down to a choice, which would get priority?
Situationally dependent. I suppose it comes down to me advocating for consistency of the fiction, the players advocating for their enjoyment, and we meet in the middle somewhere.
I don’t know....do you have like copious notes on all this stuff that you reference during play? So if someone asks “does this river flow North?” do you spend the next 10 minutes flipping through pages to confirm?
Most of the time I'd already know which way the river flows. Most such information comes simply from the map - where is the high ground, where is the low ground, odds are pretty good a river flows from one to the other. :)
Yeah...a session of play with no rules seems like something to avoid, in my book. Like I said, scenes like this aren’t bad, but entire sessions just push it too far. I mean, it’s a game.
It's a game, yes, and part of that game involves free-form downtime.
 


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