D&D 5E Has D&D Combat Always Been Slow?

[jgsugden]

The speed f the combat is highly dependent upon the DM and the players. A 5 round combat for 5 players against 5 monsters can go anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 hours.

If the combat is dragging, it can usually be improved by a couple tricks to deepen the engagement of the combat:

• Roll attack rolls and damage at the same time. Roll saving throws and damage from spells at the same time. Basically, all dice should roll at the same time, and use the result if you need it.
• Announce who is on deck whenever someone takes a turn.
• As a DM, don't overthink. Unless your foe is a tactical mastermind, making a few mistakes because you rush is no big deal.
• End combats when the materials risks are over. Once the PCs have won the day, don't make them spend extra time cleaning up. Enemies might surrender, flee, or just die when they still have hps left.
• If a player is taking too long to decide on what to do, skip them and go to the next player and let them take their turn after the next player goes. If a monster is next in order, don't do this... Only skip to another player.
• If the same player is having trouble deciding what to do, give them some help between sessions. Perhaps you can work out a cheat sheet telling them what their options are.
• Make sure there is something dynamic about the battle outside of the fight. If you have an external tension, not tied to who lives and who dies, it keeps things interesting. If the PCs are trying to uncover information during the fight, trying to avoid a changing environment (lava pouring into the room, etc...), convince someone of something, solve a puzzle, rescue someone and bet them to safety, etc... they'll be more engaged.
• Trigger reactions. Not every PC in every round, but every PC should get one or more reactions during a fight. This trains players to keep their attention on the game.
• Provide dynamic storytelling. Describe the results of an attack in a satisfying way. Embrace frustration (playfully) when the PCs get a crit. Acknowledge when your dice are hot. Applaud good tactics, or nice rolls. Positive reinforcement and twisting knives increase interest.
• If a player has done some good roleplaying, make sure you pay it off. A player that made suboptimal decisions to make a PC that is more fun should be rewarded for that effort. Why does this matter for combats that drag on? Players never feel this way when they're engaged in the story, and a player that made suboptimal decisions may feel ineffective in combat and that you're ignoring their hooks - both of which reduce engagement.
• Sometimes, things just bomb. People may feel out of sorts, they may be tired, or they may be distracted. If that is just one player, just push on. If it is a few, then consider getting them to a point where the PCs can take a breath and pull focus away from the game and towards other conversation. Don't force the game when it is not working. They may get refocused that evening or you may just pull back to it next week when everyone is refreshed.
• Whet the appetite. Foreshadow within the game to give them an idea what is coming. Out of game, give them little reminders that you've got something fun planned (either monsters, a treasure, or a story beat). You want them to be eager to see what is coming when they throw the dice for the first time that evening.

If you try these things, players tend to be more engaged and more interested in your combats. Whether they go by in 30 minutes or 90 minutes, they'll be more engaged.

 

[Stormonu]

In my experience, 5E combat is faster than 3E (by a TON), about the same as 1E/2E and slower than B/X.

A lot though, is really dependent on the group and DM. If you aren't familiar with a monster or character's abilities or don't have a plan in place for action, a lot of momentum can be lost and things will drag. Sometimes you can help it, sometimes you have to live with it depending on the person. Several people have given great suggestions above, but unfortunately some people just aren't very tactical and you have to give them some time or room to do their thing.

For Ex., my wife has a learning disability and that translates to agonizingly slow turns where she's often ineffective. On the other hand, as a player I'm generally ready to roll as soon as my turn comes up - unless someone or something just threw a monkey wrench into my plan (like the fighter charging the goblins I was about to drop a fireball on).

 

[Monayuris]

Modern D&D combat is slow. Way slower than old school D&D.

Too many options, too many hit points, too many different ways to execute actions. Especially 5e where you have cantrips where some are attack rolls, but others are saving throws.

Trash fights is only a concept that exists in modern D&D. Because older edition D&D, nearly any combat can be impactful there are no trash fights.

For a while now, my primary group has been playing other rpgs more often.

Also, for a while now, I have had the feeling that D&D combat seems to take a long time to work through one encounter. However, it really hit me how slow it was (or at least seems to be to me) after the group recently played a mini-campaign of 5E to cover a few sessions that a regular couldn't attend.

Thinking about it more, I started to ponder if D&D combat has always been this way. I'm most familiar with 3rd, 4th, and 5th. All three are relatively quick for the first few levels. As options (and monster HP) start to pile up, encounters slow. What highlights is more is that it becomes slow for reasons which aren't (imo) compelling. If an encounter is a dramatic fight with a tough opponent, involves and epic chase, or something else, it's not quite as noticeable. But taking (sometimes) an hour to beat on some basic critters as part of an opening encounter gets old quickly. When I played primarily D&D, I didn't notice it as much. As myself (and the group) have spent more time with other games, coming back to the D&D combat system feels more and more like a slog beyond around 5th level (and sometimes before that).

In comparison, our primary campaign is currently a FFG Star Wars game. Even with high-point-value characters and some ridiculous dice pools, we were still able to play through several encounters (and still have time to wrap up some RP stuff) in one session. Also, because of how the game functions, there were rarely turns during which nothing happened.

Likewise, for those of you who may be familiar with my posts elsewhere, you may know I play GURPS. Somehow, a game which has a reputation for being "overly complex" still manages to play through combat encounters faster than D&D.


So, my question is three parts:

1) Do you feel D&D combat is slow (or "drags")?

2) If yes, how do you address this in 5E?

3) Has it always been that way? I'm not familiar with very much of 1E or 2E.

1. D&D combat is slow in modern D&D. If you look at old school D&D (B/X for example) combat is fast, lethal, and exciting. 5E combat drags on... and is probably the worst of the modern D&D versions. 4E was much slower, but had more tactical depth which made it interesting.

2. I do the following to speed up 5E combat.

• Use morale rules from the older editions... most times combat doesn't go to the last hit point. Morale breaks first and sometimes combat ends on first blood.
• Use side based initiative or over under initiative. Cyclical initiative creates natural lulls in player attention which slows things down and causes complacency.
• No 'do overs' or 'go backs'. This I learned from running 4E for so long. If a player is done with their turn, but they forgot to apply some effect, it is too late. They can't do a 'Wait, I forgot about this..." When their turn is done, their turn is done.

3. Not at all. I suggest you look at old school D&D. In older edition D&D, combat is fast and exciting. Old school D&D is streamlined. You have less hit point bloat and combat is more decisive. It moves quickly because it is less about choosing powers and abilities and more about making tactical choices. You don't have a suite of powers to choose from, so in order to succeed it is more about your own choices and actions. Old school has 'save or die' poisons and effects, which means even the most 'trash fight' can be dangerous. Combat is something you don't enter into lightly and it requires thought and tactics to survive.

It is way easier to run as well. I have run a B/X encounter with over 40 combatants.... 6th to 7th level PCs and cohorts vs 30+ trolls (also throw in an efreeti). The encounter took 30-40 minutes to resolve. Combats take WAY less time in old school D&D, which gives you more time to accomplish more activities during a session. You can have much more adventure in a session, because one combat doesn't tie you up for 1-2 hours.

I recommend Basic Fantasy Role-Playing and Old School Essentials.

Both games are excellent entries into Old School D&D and in many ways are superior to 5E and other modern D&D rules.

 

[Horwath]

There is only one rule that can speed up combat!

for both DM and players(but this goes mostly to players);

Know you character abilities 100% and pay attention.

Now, knowing all character abilities can be difficult for new players(first few sessions of a new game system is hard for anyone) but after a while, you need to know your character sheet even if it goes up in flames.

If a spellcaster does not know what spell he/she wants to cast it is temporary removed from spells known.

Also for paying attention; this is just insulting to everyone else at the table if it is not done. Your character mind does not phase out of existence whet it is not your turn. Follow everyone's actions and try to prepare yours in advance as much as possible. Yes, sometimes a characters turn before yours can turn that whole battle upside down, but mostly it just requires change of a target for spell/attack/heal/CC.

If you have summon X spells, have your monsters pre-written up so you do not need to waste time flipping through MM every time.
Yes, sometimes there is a need for a monster that is not regular for the specific situation, but that is an exception.

 

[Argyle King]

Modern D&D combat is slow. Way slower than old school D&D.

Too many options, too many hit points, too many different ways to execute actions. Especially 5e where you have cantrips where some are attack rolls, but others are saving throws.

Trash fights is only a concept that exists in modern D&D. Because older edition D&D, nearly any combat can be impactful there are no trash fights.

1. D&D combat is slow in modern D&D. If you look at old school D&D (B/X for example) combat is fast, lethal, and exciting. 5E combat drags on... and is probably the worst of the modern D&D versions. 4E was much slower, but had more tactical depth which made it interesting.

2. I do the following to speed up 5E combat.

• Use morale rules from the older editions... most times combat doesn't go to the last hit point. Morale breaks first and sometimes combat ends on first blood.
• Use side based initiative or over under initiative. Cyclical initiative creates natural lulls in player attention which slows things down and causes complacency.
• No 'do overs' or 'go backs'. This I learned from running 4E for so long. If a player is done with their turn, but they forgot to apply some effect, it is too late. They can't do a 'Wait, I forgot about this..." When their turn is done, their turn is done.

3. Not at all. I suggest you look at old school D&D. In older edition D&D, combat is fast and exciting. Old school D&D is streamlined. You have less hit point bloat and combat is more decisive. It moves quickly because it is less about choosing powers and abilities and more about making tactical choices. You don't have a suite of powers to choose from, so in order to succeed it is more about your own choices and actions. Old school has 'save or die' poisons and effects, which means even the most 'trash fight' can be dangerous. Combat is something you don't enter into lightly and it requires thought and tactics to survive.

It is way easier to run as well. I have run a B/X encounter with over 40 combatants.... 6th to 7th level PCs and cohorts vs 30+ trolls (also throw in an efreeti). The encounter took 30-40 minutes to resolve. Combats take WAY less time in old school D&D, which gives you more time to accomplish more activities during a session. You can have much more adventure in a session, because one combat doesn't tie you up for 1-2 hours.

I recommend Basic Fantasy Role-Playing and Old School Essentials.

Both games are excellent entries into Old School D&D and in many ways are superior to 5E and other modern D&D rules.

I can't speak specifically for the other players, but the "trash fight" comment is something which sticks out to me. Yes, there are fights with mooks and minions and such when we play other games, but I don't think there's ever a sense that the outcome is mostly a foregone conclusion and we're just burning resources. I'm not saying it never happens, but, even when it does, it feels "smoother" in terms of how the games play out. I'm not sure how to explain exactly what I mean by that. In SWs, there's rarely a time when a group of Storm Trooper mooks seem entirely unable to hurt a PC... I mean, yeah, we still mop them up, but it feels like something that's a natural part of the overall story, not just something that's there to just be there. GURPS takes a different approach: a mook fight is fast because I stab the goblin in the face and he dies (but a group is still dangerous because I can't soak attacks with HP, and HP is treated more like "meat").

We've been doing both of those for a while. When I GM, I'll sometimes allow a conditional rewind if it means the difference of life or death for a PC (or if I'm teaching the game to a brand new player). I think (over the years) the general expectation that players know their characters is a factor in why we typically do and are ready to go on our turn.

I'll check out those games. I'm interested in seeing other options for playing fantasy. As a group, we're considering trying out Genesys. Which isn't to say that we're tossing out D&D. That's not the case. It's just that we seem to have a handful of issues which become more visible as we learn other games.

 

[Monayuris]

I can't speak specifically for the other players, but the "trash fight" comment is something which sticks out to me. Yes, there are fights with mooks and minions and such when we play other games, but I don't think there's ever a sense that the outcome is mostly a foregone conclusion and we're just burning resources. I'm not saying it never happens, but, even when it does, it feels "smoother" in terms of how the games play out. I'm not sure how to explain exactly what I mean by that. In SWs, there's rarely a time when a group of Storm Trooper mooks seem entirely unable to hurt a PC... I mean, yeah, we still mop them up, but it feels like something that's a natural part of the overall story, not just something that's there to just be there. GURPS takes a different approach: a mook fight is fast because I stab the goblin in the face and he dies (but a group is still dangerous because I can't soak attacks with HP, and HP is treated more like "meat").

We've been doing both of those for a while. When I GM, I'll sometimes allow a conditional rewind if it means the difference of life or death for a PC (or if I'm teaching the game to a brand new player). I think (over the years) the general expectation that players know their characters is a factor in why we typically do and are ready to go on our turn.

I'll check out those games. I'm interested in seeing other options for playing fantasy. As a group, we're considering trying out Genesys. Which isn't to say that we're tossing out D&D. That's not the case. It's just that we seem to have a handful of issues which become more visible as we learn other games.

It depends on the game. But I have to re-evaluate because there really is no such thing as a trash fight.

Those who run story based games would not have a trash fight, unless it fit in their story. Those who run more sandbox games would not consider any fight a trash fight because it was an event that occured in their game.

The thing is you don't need to toss out any game. Just understand there are other games out there that may provide an experience closer to what you are trying to achieve for any given campaign.

It is about choosing the best tool for the campaign you want. Yes, 5E is the most popular version of D&D out there. That does not mean it is the best D&D for every possible need. Some games may need more tactical combat ( maybe 4E would be a better choice), other games may need more streamlined rules and clear straightforward exploration rules (where B/X or OSE or Basic Fantasy would be a better choice).

I would also like to point out the (now finished) Kickstarter for Worlds Without Number. Another great game and another option that can be of interest.

 

[Charlaquin]

What highlights is more is that it becomes slow for reasons which aren't (imo) compelling. If an encounter is a dramatic fight with a tough opponent, involves and epic chase, or something else, it's not quite as noticeable. But taking (sometimes) an hour to beat on some basic critters as part of an opening encounter gets old quickly.

It sounds like what you’re noticing is less a problem of combat being too slow in general and more a problem of encounters continuing on past the point where the dramatic tension in the scene has petered out. I think this is a fairly common problem when the outcome of an encounter has become clear, but the DM still feels obligated to “play it out.” This is understandable, as D&D’s heavy focus on resource management and attrition-based difficulty make ending an encounter “early” feel a bit like cheating. Sure, you might know that the players have won the encounter, but they might take a few more hits before that happens, which could become relevant in future encounters.

What I find helps with this is keeping in mind the players’ goals, the monsters’ goals, and the dramatic question that conflict between those goals sets up. The monsters are only going to keep fighting as long as doing so seems like a reasonable way to achieve their goals. When the dramatic question of the scene has been answered, the monsters should recognize that continuing to fight the PCs is not going to be a viable approach to trying to achieve their goals, and change tactics. Maybe they attempt to retreat, maybe they surrender, maybe they try to gain some kind of leverage over the PCs, such as by taking a hostage. Whatever they decide to do, this will naturally change the dramatic question, and combat may no longer be the best way to resolve that uncertainty. Or maybe it will be, but if it is, the change in dramatic stakes will likely keep the combat from getting stale.

 

[Charlaquin]

It's funny--I remember when 5E first came out, people were delighted at how fast combat was. What's changed?

Well for one thing, when 5e first came out, people were comparing the length of its combats to the length of 4e combats. And while I think 4e combats can be run fairly quickly, it’s undeniable that the typical 4e experience was indeed that each combat would take a rather long time to resolve.

I think another thing that happened is that the encounter design in published adventurers changed quite a bit. The playtest adventures all involved a lot of Easy and Medium encounters, with relatively small numbers of opponents in quick succession. This is also the case in some of the early 5e APs, like LMoP and Tyranny of Dragons. But over time, the published adventures have shifted more towards a model where you have fewer, more difficult and complex encounters, set further apart.

 

[Don Durito]

Well for one thing, when 5e first came out, people were comparing the length of its combats to the length of 4e combats. And while I think 4e combats can be run fairly quickly, it’s undeniable that the typical 4e experience was indeed that each combat would take a rather long time to resolve.

I think another thing that happened is that the encounter design in published adventurers changed quite a bit. The playtest adventures all involved a lot of Easy and Medium encounters, with relatively small numbers of opponents in quick succession. This is also the case in some of the early 5e APs, like LMoP and Tyranny of Dragons. But over time, the published adventures have shifted more towards a model where you have fewer, more difficult and complex encounters, set further apart.

A familiar pattern. I remember a post on rpgnet a while back that did a deep dive into how the exact same thing happened with 3rd edition.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

3rd edition was the worst version for slow combat. Far, far too many plusses and minuses.