A Question Of Agency?

The contention was that doing such does NOT lead to verisimilitude. It depends not on how human psychology actually works (which we are still a long way from fully understanding) but how one perceives it as working.
Surely we all agree that we mostly lack complete control over our own mental state, right? I mean, you would have to be 'Spock' to say you completely control your emotions. How can such complete control in the game NOT lead to less verisimilitude by any common reading of that term?
 

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It doesn't have to be 'mechanical', it just has to 'have consequence'.
You say this, but your example has mechanics attached, and every example I've seen posited that didn't has been called "meaningless" or "color." @Campbell has, I think, suggested that a table's expectations/norms might serve as adequate constraint; do you concur?
 

Surely we all agree that we mostly lack complete control over our own mental state, right? I mean, you would have to be 'Spock' to say you completely control your emotions. How can such complete control in the game NOT lead to less verisimilitude by any common reading of that term?
Well, Let’s start by assuming it does and analyzing why. Because I’m here to tell you that I and many others have no verisimilitude issues with directing the emotions of our characters.
 

Unlike monopoly, details about my character are salient to the game.
Sure, if they are put to some test. If not they are 'mere color'. When you insist that the player must exclusively control his character's entire mental state, then you exclude all of that from being anything BUT color. It is identical to the RP in Monopoly. Real RP, but not part of the game in any reasonable sense.
 

Sure, if they are put to some test. If not they are 'mere color'. When you insist that the player must exclusively control his character's entire mental state, then you exclude all of that from being anything BUT color. It is identical to the RP in Monopoly. Real RP, but not part of the game in any reasonable sense.
I keep hearing the term test. What do you mean by it?
 

You say this, but your example has mechanics attached, and every example I've seen posited that didn't has been called "meaningless" or "color." @Campbell has, I think, suggested that a table's expectations/norms might serve as adequate constraint; do you concur?
Well, it has to be some sort of part of the 'process', so in some sense I guess there is a 'mechanical' element. It isn't always defined in very specific mechanical terms. For example in PACE your character has two adjectives which describe them, so a character might be "Bold: 4, Funny: 3" (that is the whole character sheet, mechanically). How you interpret these and invoke them in the game, and how they lead to other fictional state are governed by rules/process. This character could perhaps become 'smitten' with an NPC. That would restrict their ability to play on their boldness and funniness in some situations (or maybe enhance it). I guess that is all 'mechanics', but since there is a huge amount of interpretation in terms of what the 'smitten' condition means (and the actual condition itself is just made up, it has no specific rules) I would call that more "genre logic" driven. I don't really think the distinction is too important here.
 

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I mean, I've played with people with phobias, and I've certainly played with people who would be uninterested in RPing various social elements of real life (prejudice for example) or stories with elements of personal violence, etc. Those are all things that should be respected at any table, regardless of rules, and if a GM's answer to "don't bring this to the table" is "its part of the genre/story/setting" then that is someone who needs common decency explained to them at length...

Though you can hit cases where you have to decide at that point "Time to not run (or if everyone else is interested, play in) that campaign"; I suspect you'd have to play at a really surface level not to hit some elements of slavery in game set in even a near-expie of ancient Rome for example (and that'd probably come across as whitewashing it, sooner or later).
 


I keep hearing the term test. What do you mean by it?
Well, the 'Lusting After the Queen' example for instance. The character's resolve to not act on the feeling would be tested if he came back to court. He's now going to be directly tempted. The GM would follow his principles, which probably includes bringing these choices to play. So, surely, Launcelot will run smack dab into Guenevere at some fairly fraught point. The player might have a choice to just give in, lets see what story that entails, or maybe he has to make an Honor check or something, a test of honor. If he passes, then he leaps back on his horse and rides off again, or goes to the king and confesses his dilemma, or something. If he fails, then his honor is stained, the Fellowship of the Round Table is broken in spirit, etc. I mean, this is a very 'cut and dried' genre, so its pretty easy to spell out what happens in these different cases. Most games will not be so clear cut. Even in this example Launcelot could then lie to the King, try to usurp the throne, etc. How this 'alternative story' would play out would be the meat of the game.

Your way the player alone has all the choices of how to play this. There's no test. There isn't an ACTUAL conflict, it is 'color'. It may be used to describe WHY you decided to overthrow Arthur, or whatever, but the logic is not salient to how the game is played. The action can be entirely described in game mechanical terms without ever referring to the character's mental state.
 

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