A Question Of Agency?

Again, no one is saying it is literally real. We are saying a dungeon map in the GMs notebook can be as real as content that has entered what you call "The shared mindspace". Due to the nature of the GMs role in the game, content that only exists in the GMs mind can be thought of as being as real as the material that the players have already encountered in the game.

So then what about when a GM changes the occupant of 23 Chestnut from Rupert the Elf to Mortimer the Troll? One thing is in the notes, but the GM changes their mind and it’s another thing that makes it into play.

Are these equally “real” in the fiction?
 

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So then what about when a GM changes the occupant of 23 Chestnut from Rupert the Elf to Mortimer the Troll? One thing is in the notes, but the GM changes their mind and it’s another thing that makes it into play.

Are these equally “real” in the fiction?

no, which is why under the style I am discussing, the GM wouldn’t make that change. And not making the change is crucial in this instance. It is like if the GM has a map and there is a keep to the north and haunted mansion to the south. If the GM sticks to the map he made, when the players go north, that choice matters because it takes place in a real setting with objective geography. If the GM has the haunted mansion whether they go north or south, then the GM is running a setting that is less real than the kind I am talking about
 



This is what @pemerton describes as “playing to find out what the GM has in his notes”, which is usually a description that sees some hard pushback. The only distinction you’re making is that the GM is free to change his notes based on what the players do.

And positions like this, are why this clearly isn’t just an objective analysis on your side’s part: it is a playstyle debate framed as analysis (as it always is in these discussions). This kind description is dismissive of the style and fails to understand what it is really about
 

no, which is why under the style I am discussing, the GM wouldn’t make that change. And not making the change is crucial in this instance. It is like if the GM has a map and there is a keep to the north and haunted mansion to the south. If the GM sticks to the map he made, when the players go north, that choice matters because it takes place in a real setting with objective geography. If the GM has the haunted mansion whether they go north or south, then the GM is running a setting that is less real than the kind I am talking about
There's a lot of talk about sides in this thread, which is, to my mind, unfortunate. The bolded sentence above is in no way shape or form anything that most participants in this thread would tolerate, as it's a pretty clear case of illusionism and railroading. So we really have two issues here. First, the unfounded notion that there are two clear sides to this 'argument', which there are not, and also that there seems to be a tendency to reductio ad absurdum in the characterization of competing or contrary viewpoints. Neither notion is helpful to the overall dialogue.

I'm not blaming you specifically Bedrock, yours is just the current example.
 
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One more thing I felt I should add ---

I was the original poster of the thread 7 or 8 years ago praising the Dissociative Mechanics essay.

At the time it spoke to something I thought I was experiencing in relation to 4e.

And to a degree, I think there is some merit to the basic concept. But I also discovered in analyzing my own play that it didn't account for what I was doing with Savage Worlds. Why was I so upset about healing surges and "Come and Get It", but was totally okay with using bennies and "soak rolls", when soak rolls are identical to healing surges, only in reverse?

I do think there can be some value in considering whether mechanics are "associative" to a character's fictional framing, but I've also discovered since then that Story Now / high agency play doesn't break down "principled" rpg play like I thought it would.

To the contrary, I've found that letting go of the notions of GM controlled backstory and hard-and-fast rules around "the fiction must exist independently from player concerns" freed me to pursue new and exciting styles of play that I never would have considered viable in 2013, let alone preferred.
 

no, which is why under the style I am discussing, the GM wouldn’t make that change. And not making the change is crucial in this instance. It is like if the GM has a map and there is a keep to the north and haunted mansion to the south. If the GM sticks to the map he made, when the players go north, that choice matters because it takes place in a real setting with objective geography. If the GM has the haunted mansion whether they go north or south, then the GM is running a setting that is less real than the kind I am talking about

Then I think the only conclusion is that you prefer a GM directed style. If everything is already predetermined and cannot change, then I would propose that your players’ agency is much more limited than you realize.

This is not a bad thing, in and of itself. GM directed play can be fun and engaging. I also won’t miscategorize it as a railroad, because I don’t think they’re the same thing at all. The players are exploring the fictional world you’ve created.

What may be bad is that you seem to have some blindspots about your approach. Or at least, you seem to based on how you’ve described it here.

And positions like this, are why this clearly isn’t just an objective analysis on your side’s part: it is a playstyle debate framed as analysis (as it always is in these discussions). This kind description is dismissive of the style and fails to understand what it is really about

It is not. You have just described your game as consisting of fiction that’s largely determined ahead of time by the GM. You’ve even shot down the idea that a GM could make a change before committing to the fiction as some kind of aberrant method. The players then direct their characters to interact with the GM’s world as they see fit. They are playing to find out what the GM has already determined. For some reason, you see this as player agency, and when you describe it in words that you deem friendly enough, it’s good, but when others use words that are not as flattering, it’s an attack on the style. Even though you’re saying the same thing.

Further, I’d say your assertion that your predetermined approach creates a world that’s “more real” than the one others build through different kinds of play is exactly the kind of value judgment you’re complaining that others are making.

I’d also point out that your example is pretty flawed as it depicts illusionism, which says that you’re either attempting to paint the “other side” negatively or else you’ve failed to understand the style being proposed by them.

I play 5E and a good deal of that game revolves around ideas I have in my head/notes. It doesn’t make my 5E game less enjoyable than my Blades game. I enjoy both for a variety of reasons. But Blades allows for more player agency. The fiction is entirely about the characters the players have chosen to play such that if a different group of players and/or characters were to be involved, the fiction would be entirely different.
 

no one is saying it is real. Even the things that happen in play have no true reality. what is being said is that it has the same level of reality as what is established in play if the GM has already made a firm choice (whether or not that has yet been shared it is known to exist in the setting).
FYI the quote you attribute to me wasn't mine.
 

What if you change your mind on Wednesday and you decide that It’s not Rupert who lives there but Mortimer the Troll? Then you proceed to play on Thursday where this gets established through play.

Is there some kind of paradox? Who lives at 23 Chestnut? What is true in the shared fiction or fictional world?
Easy.

Monday: Rupert the Elf lives at 23 Chestnut.
Tuesday: Mortimer the Troll eats Rupert the Elf, loots his keys, and moves into his house.
Wednesday: Mortimer the Troll lives at 23 Chestnut.
Thursday: the PCs try to exact revenge on Rupert's behalf. :)
 

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