A Question Of Agency?

Deadly diseases are a part of our world. Brothers die all the time to disease or random violence in such a way that we cannot intervene.
GM: Hey, Jack. Your character dies of a cardiac arrest while sitting on the toilet and there was no way for you to reach medical aid in time. Sorry. But that's just real life and rolling on my random chart. I hope you enjoyed your agency in the game.
 

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This seems likely to be true. While I wouldn't deny that choosing between multiple undesirable outcomes could be meaningful, I'd find it an unpalatable choice to be forced to make as recreation; which seems to indicate they're at least sometimes separable.

I don't think I have a particularly relevant opinion on this.

I found that sharing worldbuilding (before and/or during a campaign) made it harder for me to run the setting with a degree of consistency that I'm happy with. I have expressed this as, roughly, "the setting I was running felt incoherent to me." I found when I was playing (not running)

a game wherein the players could change elements of the setting (at will, by spending currency/tokens) that the setting eventually felt kinda incoherent to me as a player, but there were other issues with that campaign and that was not my largest problem with it.

I'm specifically not saying that my experiences are universal, or even the norm.

As with 2, I don't think I have a particularly relevant opinion here.

The possible downside of this approach is that it seems possible shading to likely that none of these types of agency is purely binary, so rather than something like tic-tac-toe you'd be playing something like n-dimensional chess. Not that you should be discouraged, just that "matrix" (as I understand it) might not be the shape of the data here.

Just so we're clear, I look forward to your contributions in these threads. I see the name "prabe" and I think "this is someone I often disagree with on the particulars but I need to read this post."

All the stuff you've written (before the last paragraph) is pretty much where I put you at. Some, @Lanefan in particular (though there have been plenty of others over the years), feel that setting incoherency inevitability (or at least "unpalatable drift") under such a play paradigm is an empirically provable claim.

On the bottom paragraph:

I tried to make my thoughts as clear as I could on the matrix first principles and development. As I wrote upthread, the idea is (a) not that there is no interdependence or bleed (its in fact, accepted a priori) but rather (b) there are, in fact, degrees of freedom. (c) Sussing both (a) and (b) out is extremely helpful. Further, (d) understanding that Protagonist Agency is (i) a HUGE part of this yet (ii) it is not necessary for play to achieve the requisite agency necessary to resolve the game's play priority (eg Pawn Stance Moldvay Basic dungeoneering is exhibit A...which was actually my very first collision with "YOUR RPGING SUCKS" in my life when WW/VtM players and LARPers would accuse myself and my friends of shallow NOT RPGING play). Finally, (e) understanding how some of these mediums and forms of agency (Character, Setting, Situation, Tactical, Strategic, Protagonism) can collide to create at-tension (or worse) play priorities at any given moment of play is EXTREMELY helpful because it will help TTRPG participants resolve those tensions in ways that don't require one play priority being utterly subordinated to another (typically by way of GM Force).
 




I enumerated and bolded some things above. Questions/thoughts:

1) So branching paths with different inputs into the decision-point (distance, danger, obstacle type, etc) yes?

a) Is there a high resolution map (you mention classic 6 mile hexes so I would think yes) where all of this is heavily prepped before hand?

b) Or is this a low res map (with 6 miles just for reference) with some dangers/terrain type and then a table that can quickly resolve the creation of each branch (this is how Torchbearer works); roll for distance > then danger > then obstacle types?

2) Can you (a) give me a quick example of this happening because of acute pressure on food/water and/or fleeing exposure to shelter (and what would be the positive feedback loop that would lead to this...I know how it manifests in Torchbearer and I wonder how much overlap there is?), (b) what the action declaration > action resolution > fallout loop would look like. (c) Please make "become lost" as part of the fallout and then depict how a character might die as a result.

Thanks in advance.
1a) Yes, exactly, and those choices are made pretty manifest in actual play (i.e. its not a surprise). I guess its a high res map, with a 6 mile hex set about 6 x 1 mile hexes wide (four fit comfortably on some big hex 8x11 hex paper I use). It's not super preppy though, it's a die drop system, and some of the smaller stuff could easily just be done on the fly. The system does it all prior though, so not like TB, more like classic dungeon design. The finished map looks like a flow chart, not a Dyson Logos production.

I do have enough random tables built into my game that I can quite easily run that on the fly entirely if I have to. My encounter process looks more like a discovery generator than it does a wandering monster table. It ranges from signs of life, to props and hazards, to actual monsters, with some conditions and resource management in for good measure.

Let me see if I can sketch the feedback loop for you. Food first:
1) Encumbrance is finite, so the players can only carry so much food and light (water isn't an issue except in deserts and whatnot). PCs can carry their STR in items total, and one ration at a d6 Usage takes up a slot (that has an average of 5 uses before it runs out).

2) That Usage Die is rolled once on a short rest, twice on a long rest (standard overnight) and three times on a full rest (a whole day). The latter two use the camp mechanics, so there is some chance to avoid those rolls (3d6 with each success on a 4+ obviating a roll)

If you have no rations you accrue exhaustion every rest that you go without, so minimum 1/day. Six levels of exhaustion is fatal. There is also a result on the random encounter charts that forces a rations roll (adventuring is hard work). The math on rations is that each one lasts roughly 2 days.

3) The party can Become Lost any time they stray from a marked trail or path, which would include larger scale exploration. They roll a d6 and have to get a 6 or better. There are three mods for this. A map or nav gear gives +1, a local guide gives +2, and a navigation or survival skill grants advantage. The amount of time the party spends lost depends on the reputation of the area (how civilized it is) and ranges from 1d6 hours to 3d6 days. After that time the party regains its bearings in a random location of the GMs choice. Every day spent lost requires 3 ration rolls per PC.

This is almost always a player choice, they have to leave the trail, but encounters can be a mitigating factor. This is an old school game, so encounter balance is a fairy tale. Running away is a necessary survival skill.

In practical terms there is no loop early in an adventure. The PCs have lots of food and probably at least a map, if not a trail. However, food can disappear fast on a bad day, and exhaustion can pile up quickly, so there's a point at which the party will have to pay careful attention to their travel decisions based on remaining food supplies. This requires an understanding of the math and system. It's simple enough in practice though.

To tie that directly to action declaration would happen at the macro level I suppose. Every travel day is a choice about do we push on or do we turn back, and there's a tangible point where there's real risk involved. The real risk is exhaustion of course. Not only does that accrue via running out of food, but it also accrues via HP depletion, and requires a Full Rest to clear (24 hours, which chews rations), and also comes with a random disadvantage for each level (cumulative).

Light is a different kind of issue. There is no darkvision in Black Hack, and no permanent, or even long duration light spell, so you absolutely must have light sources for dungeon exploration. When underground you roll a depletion die (Ud6) every turn for your light sources, so a single torch lasts somewhere between half an hour and two hours. There are panic rules for being caught in the dark, so running away, passing out, pissing yourself, that sort of thing. The level of danger is lower unless the party really pushed their luck exploring a larger underground complex. Running out of light deep underground is bad news. So, again, it's a risk vs reward call on the part of the party pretty much continuously. How much farther can we explore before we have to turn back?
 

If agency is about having the ability to affect change in the world exactly the way you want to then I’d say agency in this definition is just a synonym for power.
 

From my perspective a significant part of what makes games so great is that we have substantially more agency in a well designed game than in real life. In games our fortunes are much more significantly correlated with the choices we make than in real life as well as a much stronger feedback loop between action and consequence.

This is what makes games such great learning tools. They provide great environments to learn new skills.
 

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