A Question Of Agency?

The real world is NOTHING like any game world (leaving aside the obvious point of not being real). The real world has a vast amount of texture to it which is lacking in any imagined space. Each element in the real world is linked in unbreakable causal relationships with a vast number of other elements, and there are a huge number of such elements. This leads to all sorts of collective behavior, emergent phenomenon, etc. which is all entirely lacking in an imagined space.

From an everyday perspective, in the real world people have actual needs, things that they must have in order to continue to exist. They also have an entire array of unconscious and involuntary elements to their psyche, personality, and physiology which largely shape their overall behavior and impose a whole set of desires, which they usually find difficult to deny, at best (imagine talking about your PC going on a diet, describing his urge to eat some potato chips is almost ludicrous, but in the real world your diet has significant impacts on your overall well-being).

The result is that imagined fantasy worlds are extremely 'cartoonish' in their character. The way elements interact and the character of the events and narrative lacks most of the character of real life, where simply fulfilling our ordinary material needs is an overwhelming consideration and we deal with mundane tasks and long term ongoing relationships as the primary focus of our lives. This is true even for a 'Thor Heyerdahl' type of guy, who had fantastic adventures. It is really nothing like the depictions of the lives of PCs in pretty much any game, even one focused on events in a world which is ostensibly meant to represent our own.

So, no, my description has nothing of the character of describing real life. A sandbox is a set piece filled with adventure hooks. Real life is not. Again, this is also the basis of my fundamental objection to the characterization of any DMing process as 'deciding what would realistically happen' or even 'what is realistically plausible'.
You spent alot of time not telling me what is incorrect about referring to the real world as a menu of "interesting situations".

You spent alot of time telling me a gameworld is not exactly like the real world... well duh! So what? My point isn't that the game world is like the real world, my point is that your analogy applies to both!
 

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You spent alot of time not telling me what is incorrect about referring to the real world as a menu of "interesting situations".

You spent alot of time telling me a gameworld is not exactly like the real world... well duh! So what? My point isn't that the game world is like the real world, my point is that your analogy applies to both!

I have to agree with FrogReaver here. This argument keeps getting brought up, people either accept the argument or they don't. But I have never found the 'its impossible to simulate reality, so any striving towards realism is impossible' argument that convincing (since no one is even suggesting this is an attempt to simulate real world physics). It is an approximation of real world cause and effect, of real world plausibility. If that means to you that games can only play like Thunder Cats or GI Joe, I don't know, that is not how they feel to me at all. I think it is a sliding scale like movies, which some on a more realistic end and some on a more zany cartoonish end. No one would mistake them for reality, but they can be more or less plausible, more or less like the real world.
 

The real world is NOTHING like any game world (leaving aside the obvious point of not being real). The real world has a vast amount of texture to it which is lacking in any imagined space. Each element in the real world is linked in unbreakable causal relationships with a vast number of other elements, and there are a huge number of such elements. This leads to all sorts of collective behavior, emergent phenomenon, etc. which is all entirely lacking in an imagined space.
Movies, novels, and plays all have the same issue but yet they manage the immerse the viewer. And prior to tabletop roleplaying wargames managed to be pretty immersive. There is such a thing as good enough. Which means one doesn't have to throw up their hands and say "It too complex so it not a consideration". Which is what your post is saying.

So, no, my description has nothing of the character of describing real life. A sandbox is a set piece filled with adventure hooks. Real life is not. Again, this is also the basis of my fundamental objection to the characterization of any DMing process as 'deciding what would realistically happen' or even 'what is realistically plausible'.
Yet in real life people have adventures. Of course what we do at the table isn't as detailed as life or as it could be if a fictional place actually existed. Down the lane from Bag's Ends were hobbit living their lives despite Tolkien never describing them. Yes a bunch of short cuts are used couple with some clever techniques to bring the setting to life.

However when there a creative choice to be made, I opt for the one that reflect the reality of the setting. That what I choose to do. Other may use different criterias, for example opting for the choice that makes for the better game. Or the choice that makes for faster resolution of the action. It a creative exercise, and deciding what would realistically happen is as valid of a criteria as any other.
 

Because the focus on creating a narrative (story) collaboratively using the mechanics of a game. Just a wargames is a focus on achieving the victory conditions of a scenario, and tabletop roleplaying is about interacting with a setting as a character with their actions adjudicated by a human referee.

Now before you (and readers) thinking I am drawing hard and fast lines, it about focus. Focus is inherently fuzzy and readily adapted to hybrid forms. This can be illustrated clearly by the difference between Melee and The Fantasy Trip. Battletech and Mechwarrior. The former games are considered wargames, while the latter games are consider roleplaying game.

As they both use the same mechanics the only substantial difference is of focus. What you intend to do with the mechanics. In Melee the intent is to defeat your opponent(s) in a melee by achieving the victory conditions of the scenarios like last man standing. In The Fantasy Trip the focus is on pretending to be a character having adventures using the rules of Melee to handle combat.

In Battletech the focus is on defeating your opponents by commanding Battlemechs and other forces and achieving some victory condition. In Mechwarrior the focus on playing the pilot of a Battletech and while the system uses Battletech to resolve Mech on Mech combat it incorporate a lot of other subsystems and material not relevant to people focused on playing Battletech.

So it was with Blackmoor the first tabletop roleplaying campaign. By all the account I read, at first it would look and feel like an elaborate wargame campaign. While players were their character within the campaign, it was more of means to fight the larger battle of law versus chaos with both side comprised of players. But with advent of the Blackmoor Dungeon the focus and campaign shifted into something we would recognize today as tabletop roleplaying. Why? Because exploration of the Blackmoor Dungeon was a choice of the player as their character. It wasn't really relevant to the law versus chaos scenario. Ultimately it proved a distraction which lead to the downfall and exile of the forces of law. But it was so popular and so well-like that exploration of dungeons and ruins like the City of the Gods became Dave Arneson's campaign focus thus giving birth to tabletop roleplaying.

So with storygames, the focus is on collaborative storytelling using the rules of a game. Which values certain mechanics over other. Just as mass combat rules fell by the wayside and became a niche for tabletop roleplaying. It doesn't mean that there isn't overlap or hybrid system that straddle the line. As I said kitbashing previously I find kitbashing is the norm not the exception.

My view is that wargame, tabletop roleplaying, and story games lie on a spectrum. Yet each has a distinct focus. None of them are a 2.0 version of the others. Instead it represent increase in the variety and types of game.


So how is this theorycraft of any practical use?
The implication of my assertion is that rather than picking a game and then building a campaign. You decide on a campaign, what you want to focus on. Build the setting of the campaign whether it is wargame, roleplaying game, or storygame. Then pick the rules that best suits the campaign. One case it may be Blade in the Dark, another is may be D&D 5e, and another still it may be Shadowrun Crossfire. And you don't have to "pure". You can take a little from each game the only value judgement is whether detail makes the campaign your group want to run less work and more fun to play out.

I happen to be focused on having the players play as their character experiencing a setting. You may be more focused on collaborative narrative with everybody pitching in on a equal basis. With those as framework each of can work our group to pick or define a setting, and the rules we will play by.

Hope that clarify things.



My view it still a form of collaborative storytelling but one with a more competitive or resource bound aspect. The challenge is how can I create a interesting with my group given the resources the system given me. The resource being some type of metagame mechanic or currency that player not the character can do. Or maybe it a zero sum setup and more competitive. Like I said all sort of hybrids are possible.
However in traditional roleplaying because of it focus, players don't expect to be able to something that their character can't do. The game you describe, the player can do more than what their character can do. From I seen
As player you have mechanics at your disposal

Competition can be a form of collaboration as far as the end result goes. Look at places of natural beauty like rain forest. Definitely some competition there but yet the result is something complex that defies the laws of thermodynamic.

Wrapping it up.
If you think I am an old gamer talking weird naughty word, I am not offended. I well aware that my view are not shared the mainstream or many of the niches of our hobby.

I believe my view has a practical application help people produce campaign that are fun and interesting to play.
  • Figure out what you or the group want to focus on for the campaign
  • Make a setting for the campaign
  • Create or collect the rules need to make the above happen.
  • Play
Note that nowhere I am saying how to play the campaign. Just pick whatever make it work the way you and your group wants to work.
I think your 'evolution' perspective is good. I mean, surely wargames came first, and then 'Free Kriegsspiel', which included open-ended refereed elements, and that idea was then incorporated into hobby TT wargaming sessions, resulting in the first gen RPGs, which all feature a centralized structure with the referee describing the scenario, arbitrating the action and rules, and then describing outcomes. So, yes, modern 'Story Game' RPGs, which are 2nd or maybe 3rd generation games obviously started with the central RPG concept that was present in Arneson's games and blended that with ideas from other spheres (theater perhaps).

However, I think there's not as much space between the structures of play as some people propose. Role Play, and thus the centrality of the fiction, and of the narrative that spins out of the frame, act, arbitrate, frame loop is pretty much the same in Dungeon World, for example, as it would be in Holmes Basic, which is utterly classic early D&D. I agree that you could play Holmes Basic in 'pawn stance' and it works, whereas DW really won't, so they aren't identical, but they both produce the same basic result, which is a narrative description of characters in a fictional world depicting actions selected and described by game participants according to a process and rules structure with an open-ended character.

I think that speaks to your kit-bashing point. I wouldn't use that term myself, because I think the process is more generative of new elements and often a lot less informal than just wiring stuff together until it 'works'. I think it is plain that modern Indy RPGs, regardless of where they fall on the techniques and rules structure side of things, incorporate a LOT of theory and analysis in order to produce robust, well-functioning systems. D&D itself I would describe as a 'kit bash'. I mean, it literally is an amalgam of Survival, Chainmail, and some structure taken from the Blackmoor and Great Kingdom wargame/Braunstien-like campaigns. There is obviously a bunch of novel stuff in it, and taken as a package it surely represents a qualitative step into a new paradigm, but I would say something like PbtA is vastly less of a 'kit bash' than that!

DW deliberately and consciously emulates D&D in terms of taking a few elements and recontextualizing them (classes, races, ability scores, hit points, genre elements) but one should not mistake that for simply picking up found pieces and jimmying them together. Instead the designers went through a long process of analysis and creating a conceptual framework, from which they extracted principles. Those principles were then applied to construct a core framework of a '3rd generation RPG' (and if you look at Apocalypse World you will see that it owes only its general structure as an RPG to D&D, not any particular mechanics or other elements). Dungeon World might fool you because it goes back and picks up D&Disms DELIBERATELY and reworks them in the context of this new framework and principles. So it is an RPG, and it is on your spectrum, but it is not simply a few different mechanics glued together in a slightly different way, it is a whole different beast. Maybe not as big a qualitative step as D&D is from Chainmail, but still qualitatively different (though clearly there are '2nd generation RPGs' which did all these things before PbtA, it is just an example of the type).
 

From my perspective they are all over the place in 5e. Channel Divinity, Bardic Inspiration, Sorcery Points, Ki Points, Daily Barbarian Rage, Battlemaster Dice, Second Wind. The game is filled to the brim with loosely correlated mechanics that are much harder for me to personally justify than martial powers were in 4e (which have some features that feel like more like real human athleticism to me). Their presence as unique resources also make them feel more front and center to me personally.

PF2 is much better on this front in my experience, significantly better than either 4e or 5e in my opinion. Probably should not get into it though.
Yep, however, I think anything magical in nature can be viewed as a kind of well of power within you that gets depleted and recharged. So I don't have any problem with Channel Divinity, Bardic Inspiration, Sorcery Points, Ki Points. Just the not so magical abilities don't have a feasible explanation.

I couldn't look at 4e without seeing such abilities in everything martial characters did and I liked 4e. With 5e the focus is most often not on such abilities. My barbarian rages once. The rest of the encounter I spend attacking. My fighter uses one manuever, the rest of the fight I spend attacking. In 4e, the bulk of your character creation was around what powers you chose. The bulk of combat was about using those powers. The focus was definitely front and center on the powers.
 

since no one is even suggesting this is an attempt to simulate real world physics). It is an approximation of real world cause and effect, of real world plausibility.
While it will always be an approximation it is a substantial niche in the hobby to create systems that simulate real world physics. Or more accurately the player has to weigh the same criteria, and do things in the same order as life and game mechanics will produce the same range of results as life at roughly the same odds as found in life.

It a specific taste so it not common but it there and it works for many hobbyists. My opinion that for combat GURPS + GURPS Martial Arts is the most detailed yet playable example of this idea. But it not "better" than OD&D or Fate combat. If you want that level of detail then GURP is there.

And don't like how GURPS handles the details and thus we have RPGs like "Riddle of Steel" which also strives to emulate how life works as far as combat goes. We have RPGs that focus heavily on the social aspects.

Again when realism is the goal is to get the system to the point where the player has to weigh the same criteria, and do things in the same order as life and game mechanics will produce the same range of results as life at roughly the same odds as found in life. And the result is playable and enjoyable as a hobby. It not a impossible task but also not for everybody.
 

To a certain extent I think the sort of sandbox aesthetic talked about here is actually coming from a perspective of a version of the real world that actually makes sense. Where people's decisions are based on logic and somewhat accurate readouts of the way the world works instead of delusions and fantasies. Where the shape of history is actually based on what is likely to happen. I mean even a cursory glance at the moment in history we find ourselves should make it obvious that unlikely things happen everyday.
 

To a certain extent I think the sort of sandbox aesthetic talked about here is actually coming from a perspective of a version of the real world that actually makes sense. Where people's decisions are based on logic and somewhat accurate readouts of the way the world works instead of delusions and fantasies. Where the shape of history is actually based on what is likely to happen. I mean even a cursory glance at the moment in history we find ourselves should make it obvious that unlikely things happen everyday.
Crazy cultists are a common feature of the fantasy genre too, and I am sure as present in those sandbox settings as they're in our real world. And the recent events you're referring to were not unforeseen; not the political turmoil, not the insurrection nor the pandemic. People have foreseen them coming and have tried to warn about them. And that such warnings were not heeded was not surprising either.
 
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While it will always be an approximation it is a substantial niche in the hobby to create systems that simulate real world physics. Or more accurately the player has to weigh the same criteria, and do things in the same order as life and game mechanics will produce the same range of results as life at roughly the same odds as found in life.

I agree, and I think this just helps demonstrate the point I was trying to make. In this thread, my point is, no one has even made an argument for real world simulation of reality in their games. But I remember playing gams with all kinds of hit location charts. Millennium's End had some pretty intense tables and mechanics as I recall (if I remember correctly, stuff like heart rate was factored in). It also had some interesting mechanics around vehicles towards the same end. I also recall playing a lot of those old bookshelf games that tried to bring real world physics to things like WWI Dog fighting and Roman Chariot Races. Heck at one point I made a sepsis mechanic for one of my games, and I consulted with a real world doctor to get the actual probability of bacterial infections taking root from wounds (it wasn't hyper realistic, but it was much closer than handwaving away sepsis or just picking a probability off the top of my head). My point is just that this argument "true 1-1 simulation of reality is impossible so its all cartoons' just doesn't pass the smell test to me: some RPGs will strive for and achieve greater levels of realism than others, greater levels of plausibility than others). And many RPGs are really striving for something more like Plausibility (which I would tend to frame as having real world cause and effect in terms of everyday life, but maybe not getting into he nitty gritty of stuff like real world physics). I do think even in realistic games, there are variables in life you won't be able to account for, and the level of detail, for obvious reasons, won't be the same. But like you say, you can take real world probability and bring those into a system. I've seen this done and played games like this. One can quibble and say, yes but real life is still more complicated. That doesn't change the fact that a game like that would be closer to realism than a game of OG or Savage Worlds.
 

Yeah, simulationist play isn't actually about 100% reality at all, but rather the best approximation of reality that can be managed for a very narrow slice of the mechanics. I see this most often with combat, but it turns up other places. Essentially, the goal is realism in genre important facets of the game in question.
 

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