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A Question Of Agency?

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
The forest is probably a tough example without some of the descriptive wrappings it would come with in a real game. Normally GMs, at the very least, telegraph a little bit of information via the description. So a sun dappled forest grove, alive with butterflies would elicit different player responses than a grim wood, with mist seeping between twisted trees. Obviously I'm exaggerating a little for effect. The import of the forest is also conveyed by the fiction that has come before, and player expectations about where they are headed. In other words, context matters. :D
 
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Okay, so I get the sense that you design the setting and that you’re very thorough about it.

What I’m asking about and struggling to see from your example is how your players learn of the goals they want for their players. You said it varies....and I get that. But without a specific example, it’s hard to gage.

What are the nuts and bolts of how your players learn enough about the setting in order to craft their goals? Do you start with a setting gazetteer? Do you use random tables? Do you base it on geography? Like, if they talk to this person, they’ll learn about A and B, and if they talk to that person, they’ll learn about Y and Z. Then they can engage with whatever they want of those options.

It basically takes them coming into contact with the setting and asking questions about it (and developing a sense of the jianghu over time). Usually what they start out knowing depends on who they are. So it all begins with what sect they belong to, who their master is, what techniques they know, and what knowledges they take. It also depends on how independent they are. The disposable disciples campaign originated with a party who we largely free agents in the martial world, and they basically began by looking for ways to prove themselves locally (one of them if I recall started out a little murder hobo like, bullying some local thugs into serving under him for instance).

A lot of this stuff can vary because it can arise from the setting details I have established (i.e. I know red claw gang is active in this area, and so if the players go around looking for local bullies, they stand a good chance of encountering Red Claw Gang members). Usually this kind of stated goal, I ask for a Survival roll for (and it kind of operates as a more fluid inversion of the encounter table). And Survival has a bunch of sub skills (so there is one for cities, one for wilderness, etc). So survival can also be used for things like moving from one district in a city to another district. But sometimes these details are things I just invent based on what seems plausible. For example I think the above bullying incident was in a tiny village, for which I had very little information and there wasn't a lot of sect activity in the area, so they were just a couple of nobody's bullying a local street vendor, who the player called out and attacked. Now, the moment I introduced them, I wrote down basic details and motives, Qi rank (level), and techniques. These guys were 0 level so they didn't really have much to throw at the player. This at least gave me enough information to know what social approaches would work with them, how they might respond to being defeated publicly, etc. I am hazy on the details as this was a long time ago, but it eventually led to them becoming aware of a group called the Demon Moon Cult, and when they had amassed enough of their own power, they plotted against its leader and turned the subchief of the organization against him, effectively taking control of the sect (again fuzzy on the details but I think the way they did this was the leader of the party became the disciple of the sub chief and was able to exert soft power over the organization through her: but it has been a long time and I could be way off----however these are the sorts of things that would happen in the campaign either way). Some of what they knew about the sect was from going to the sect and interacting with it, some was what they were told by other sects in the region and individuals they met.

But in a different campaign as members of the same organization. And that organization had goals, which they were involved in. So that started them out with a basic package of knowledge (they knew about their own sect, they knew about the sects major rival, they knew about the important cities in the area where their sect did business, etc).
 

What are the nuts and bolts of how your players learn enough about the setting in order to craft their goals? Do you start with a setting gazetteer? Do you use random tables? Do you base it on geography? Like, if they talk to this person, they’ll learn about A and B, and if they talk to that person, they’ll learn about Y and Z. Then they can engage with whatever they want of those options.

I answered some of this above, but no I don't share a setting gazetteer. I do have a sect section in my rulebook (which I mentioned in a prior post) and that is something the players can read if they are inclined. My general attitude is I never like to dump information like that on people before a game (I don't like giving anything that feels like homework). So instead I focus on questions and answers before a session usually if we need to establish what they know. We can also do that during the session, I don't particularly worry about stopping to explain things if they need some info. But I would say it is all very freeform and organic, and based on my sense of what characters would know (perhaps based on who they are, where they are, the occasional knowledge roll, etc). I don't usually get super specific (like this man in this village knows this, unless i am running a mystery or something). There are probably other ways things crop up in play. I basically do what feels natural.

One impression I am getting from this conversation is you like clear procedures and it seems you probably like consistency too in that respect. My style is probably much more intuitive and hand wavy than yours. When I make a game for example, I may have a vision of how I want to run it, but I could care less if others cleave to that vision. They are free to run the game how they like. And in my own games I am not overly precious about any of this.

Also I am pretty low ego as a GM. I am not the greatest GM in the world by any stretch, and freely admit to being a bit on the lazy side, but I also admit when I make errors to my players, I am pretty transparent about my thinking process and rationale when I make judgements, and all that goes a long way I find. I am also not an 'actor'. I have such a dry delivery sometimes I have to give my players additional descriptive information so they know if an NPC is being sarcastic or angry.

One procedure or technique I do frequently use that may be of importance here is the long distance villain: LONG-DISTANCE VILLAINY

I did this two or three times in my Ogre Gate Campaign. Most recently in the Lady 87 campaign I had the player who played Bone Breaker in the original disposable disciples, play Scholar Han (a character who emerged as an antagonist to the party over the course of play). What this does is allows me to throw a villain at the party who is truly gloves off. While I embrace let the dice fall where they may and I have no compunction about killing PCs, you still are always restrained by a sense of fairness I find. So this helps shake things up. I make clear to the players that another player is taking on the villain role, has resources and is going all out against them. The only problem that arises with this is you can sometimes misunderstand or misapply the orders given the long distance villain (since that person is usually not at the table).
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I answered some of this above, but no I don't share a setting gazetteer. I do have a sect section in my rulebook (which I mentioned in a prior post) and that is something the players can read if they are inclined. My general attitude is I never like to dump information like that on people before a game (I don't like giving anything that feels like homework). So instead I focus on questions and answers before a session usually if we need to establish what they know. We can also do that during the session, I don't particularly worry about stopping to explain things if they need some info. But I would say it is all very freeform and organic, and based on my sense of what characters would know (perhaps based on who they are, where they are, the occasional knowledge roll, etc). I don't usually get super specific (like this man in this village knows this, unless i am running a mystery or something). There are probably other ways things crop up in play. I basically do what feels natural.

Okay, that helps me get a sense. Survival skill as a kind of means of gathering info or understanding the local situation. Some freeform narration from NPCs and the like.

One impression I am getting from this conversation is you like clear procedures and it seems you probably like consistency too in that respect. My style is probably much more intuitive and hand wavy than yours. When I make a game for example, I may have a vision of how I want to run it, but I could care less if others cleave to that vision. They are free to run the game how they like. And in my own games I am not overly precious about any of this.

It honestly depends on the game for me. My 5E campaign is pretty loose. Mostly because the rules system is a bit of a mixed bag. But I’m lucky enough that my group and I have been playing together for years and so we understand each other, and so we kind of run the game the way that we want to. So there are plenty of rules that we change or ignore or handwave away.

Now, having said that, I try to be aware of my procedures and how they impact players’ decisions, and so on. I try to remain consistent in my approach and I do utilize some best practices that I think help. All of my rolls are made in the open, all DCs are announced. I almost never call for a roll...I prefer that the player be the one to decide to act (I haven’t been able to quite eliminate this entirely). Besides those more rules focused things, we use the Backgrounds and the Traits, Ideals, Bonds, and Flaws a bit more significantly. A lot of those decisions are what we base play on. I also try as much as possible to use certain principles that are cited by PbtA and BitD....play to find out, ask questions and build on the answers, be a fan of the characters....that kind of stuff.

With my Blades in the Dark games, I stick closer to the rules because they’re very tightly integrated and they’re designed with a clear intent which is coherent and consistent. They’re not the Frankenstein’s monster that 5E D&D kind of is....and they work really well.

But I do think if we’re examining how we play, that understanding what we’re doing and why, and the impact that has on player decisions and their ability to fully realize the setting and their characters’ place in it, is, if not necessary, then at least beneficial.

Also I am pretty low ego as a GM. I am not the greatest GM in the world by any stretch, and freely admit to being a bit on the lazy side, but I also admit when I make errors to my players, I am pretty transparent about my thinking process and rationale when I make judgements, and all that goes a long way I find. I am also not an 'actor'. I have such a dry delivery sometimes I have to give my players additional descriptive information so they know if an NPC is being sarcastic or angry.

One procedure or technique I do frequently use that may be of importance here is the long distance villain: LONG-DISTANCE VILLAINY

I did this two or three times in my Ogre Gate Campaign. Most recently in the Lady 87 campaign I had the player who played Bone Breaker in the original disposable disciples, play Scholar Han (a character who emerged as an antagonist to the party over the course of play). What this does is allows me to throw a villain at the party who is truly gloves off. While I embrace let the dice fall where they may and I have no compunction about killing PCs, you still are always restrained by a sense of fairness I find. So this helps shake things up. I make clear to the players that another player is taking on the villain role, has resources and is going all out against them. The only problem that arises with this is you can sometimes misunderstand or misapply the orders given the long distance villain (since that person is usually not at the table).

That’s pretty interesting. I don’t know if I’ve ever heard anyone do that before. That’s cool.

I can sometimes be a bit soft on the characters in my D&D game. The players have grown quite attached to the group, and I suppose I have, too. So I get the idea of relying on the long distance player to kind of be tough on the characters.

I’ve found that less necessary with Blades because the way the game works it gives the players strong means to prevent character death. It allows you as a GM to swing hard when you should. That can be harder to do in other games.

I think that what I would worry about if I was to actually run 5E D&D for a group of players who were new to me is that I would struggle to do what the game actually expects the GM to do. It’s very GM centric....the players only understand what the GM tells them. The GM sets the scene and the stakes and the difficulty and likely the outcome. Several points where errors or miscommunications can be made that impact a player’s understanding, which then influences their choices.

Is this ever something you worry about?
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
One procedure or technique I do frequently use that may be of importance here is the long distance villain: LONG-DISTANCE VILLAINY
I've never done long-distance villainy but I have done long-distance party-NPC running; where a remote ex-player would email me during the week with (usually very over-the-top!) instructions for what a particular party NPC would do in the coming session if possible, and then during the session I-as-DM would play this out as best I could.

It didn't always work - sometimes the right situation just never arose where the given instructions would make sense - but when it did it was rather hilarious. :)

I didn't tell the players until after the NPC was dead and gone that it had in fact been ghost-run by an ex-player that many of them knew. On hearing this, and knowing the player in question, all the crazy over-the-top-ness suddenly made sense. :)
 

Note that several of us in the discussion don't routinely play the D&D (nor OSR knockoffs thereof) lines.
Many of the metacurrency using games (BW, HotBlooded, Fate, 2d20, Cortex Classic, Cortex Plus/Prime) explicitly don't give the GM that kind of free-reign. D&D may be 2/3 of the market, but the market is changing; mid-range companies are getting audience growth faster than D&D is... the buying public is bigger now than 2 years ago, and 2ya more than 4 ya... I've not quibbled about D&D using Gygax's Rule 0... But many other games explicitly don't use it.
Of course! There is no 'rule 0' in a PbtA game for example, though the GM is certainly expected to direct the action. In fact such a rule would simply be out of place in that sort of a system where the whole agenda of the GM is to provide for the players. It is 'servant leadership' in a rather pure form. You don't 'rule 0 your SCRUM team' so to speak.
 



pemerton

Legend
The forest is probably a tough example without some of the descriptive wrappings it would come with in a real game. Normally GMs, at the very least, telegraph a little bit of information via the description. So a sun dappled forest grove, alive with butterflies would elicit different player responses than a grim wood, with mist seeping between twisted trees. Obviously I'm exaggerating a little for effect. The import of the forest is also conveyed by the fiction that has come before, and player expectations about where they are headed.
In this particular case, the GM - me - described the "deep and clawing shadows [that[ stretch across the path, and the wind [that] rattles through the trees." I don't think the players found the ghosts to be too out-of-character for that forest!
 

pemerton

Legend
I think that what I would worry about if I was to actually run 5E D&D for a group of players who were new to me is that I would struggle to do what the game actually expects the GM to do. It’s very GM centric....the players only understand what the GM tells them. The GM sets the scene and the stakes and the difficulty and likely the outcome. Several points where errors or miscommunications can be made that impact a player’s understanding, which then influences their choices.

Is this ever something you worry about?
This is what @Manbearcat has pointed to with his comparison to multi-dimensional Pictionary.
 

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