D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[billd91]

That‘s one infamous illustration that bears no resemblance to how drow are described in their original appearances in the G series, or the folklore that Gygax got his inspiration from.

No resemblance? Not sure I'd agree. Black skinned, pale haired, slight of build, shapely. All right out of the description in G3.

 

[Oofta]

Okay fair enough. Didn’t want to weigh in on you.

I just reckon the ones who would care about it already know where to look.

The new people coming in who don’t know, just don’t care.

They’re as likely to have a good Orc having played WOW as a bad one.

A) It's perfectly okay to disagree. If I ever seem annoyed at this ... it's just that it keeps going round and round in circles. Even then it's more just exhaustion than annoyance at this point.
B) People who played older editions will know what the historical values were, new people will not.

All I can say is that if I were teenaged me picking up the MM and every humanoid was "any alignment", I don't think it would have caught my imagination as much. It would also be more difficult to justify effectively always evil orcs* in my campaign.

I guess my real issue is that there's never room for compromise. No I don't think saying "no humanoid can ever default to evil" is a compromise unless by "compromise" it means "accept the one true way". I fully support clarifying alignment an culture is just a default, that it can and should vary from campaign to campaign. That maintains a pretty fundamental concept while clarifying that there are options. YMMV.

*Which I'm probably not been very clear. I think some orcs (or whatever creature) are not evil. But it's so few that it doesn't matter and either they ignore their moral qualms to survive to the point they become evil or are killed by their own group.

 

[Haffrung]

The intentions may not have been racist--it's possible to make arguments they weren't, which is what my second sentence was about--but it's nigh-impossible not to look at the drow--black-skinned and cursed to be evil--and not think of the Curse of Ham (as interpreted by the founders of the LDS).

Nigh on impossible? I‘d hazard that the great majority of people who have played D&D over the years have never made that connection. Most people don’t even know what the Curse of Ham is (I had to look it up).

I think people who travel in a very particular American cultural and political milieu vastly over-estimate how many others see the world through the same lens.

 

[HJFudge]

I didn't associate the "monstrous humanoids" with reality, at all, until I did; now I can't choose not to see it.

Do you feel the portrayal of monstrous humanoids in RPGs has had an actual affect on the way real life minorities are/have been treated? I'm with you up until that point.

"Oh man, they used black skin to denote badness? yeah thats pretty cringe. (handwaves) Look now they are super pale. Or instead of being marked by black skin cause evulz, they instead are marked with glowing magical runes due to their betrayal of the Elven Queen."

Problem solved. That other people don't care and will just run it as is has no effect on me NOR does it have any affect on anyone in real life whatsoever.

"Well, mr/mrs. minority, I WAS going to treat you well but you see, you remind me of a drow in D&D and they are OBVIOUSLY bad so...I am sorry, no equal treatment for you!" - This has never happened.

In fact, one might argue that using a stereotype in a game setting and then having the game illustrate the falseness of that stereotype is a very good learning moment for a younger player.

Of course, no matter what the 'official' lore is I'm just going to make my own anyway so... /shrug.

 

[Minigiant]

What I almost never see discussed is the reality of species defining gods in all this.

If a specific species is warlike, or something (orc or drow) and there is a god sitting there that defined how that species is going to function are we going to have to throw that away on the alter of progress?

I'll note the wall of the faithless was errata removed from the Sword Coast book recently.

Are we just going to have Wizards drop things some people are uncomfortable with?

If my orcs raid, pillage, destroy and despoil, but I never call them evil (even with an Evil god) is that OK?

It's fine if you have an evil god mind controlling all your humanoids orcs/drow/gnolls/hobgoblins.

The only problems are when you paint them under a real life person or if you take the evil god out but keep the mind controlled personality.

 

[billd91]

I think people who travel in a very particular American cultural and political milieu vastly over-estimate how many others see the world through the same lens.

The "American cultural milieu" with respect to racism is hardly confined to the US. Our cultural milieu with respect to slavery is directly derived from various European milieus as is our culture in general. The issues of racism, white supremacy, anti-blackness are global even if details subtlely differ from place to place.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Nigh on impossible? I‘d hazard that the great majority of people who have played D&D over the years have never made that connection. Most people don’t even know what the Curse of Ham is (I had to look it up).

I think people who travel in a very particular American cultural and political milieu vastly over-estimate how many others see the world through the same lens.

One might think that, given D&D is "a very particular American cultural" game, that was invented by Americans in the American midwest, it would be natural to look at D&D through an American lens when analyzing how it presents itself.

I mean ... that's how I would do it.

 

[Haffrung]

No resemblance? Not sure I'd agree. Black skinned, pale haired, slight of build, shapely. All right out of the description in G3.

They’re elves with black to purplish skin. Slim, delicate-looking, and sharp-featured.

This is the first illustration of drow published. Does it look like African-Americans to you?

One of the problems with illustrating drow is it’s difficult to illustrate characters with black - actually black, not brown - skin. So artists fell back on drawing them with brown skin. And at the time of that GDQ illustration, TSR artists were using real-world models for their work. Which is why they all look like extras from cheesy 80s action movies

 

[Scribe]

One might think that, given D&D is "a very particular American cultural" game, that was invented by Americans in the American midwest, it would be natural to look at D&D through an American lens when analyzing how it presents itself.

I mean ... that's how I would do it.

Fair enough, does that make FR Canadian?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Drow are not onyx skinned because they are evil.

Uhhhh sometimes they have been. The reason they're dark-skinned varies from edition to edition and setting to setting. In quite a few cases, a "curse" turned them that colour, in which case there is a direct link between them being evil and dark-skinned, which is obviously messed-up.

They’re elves with black to purplish skin. Slim, delicate-looking, and sharp-featured.

This is the first illustration of drow published. Does it look like African-Americans to you?
View attachment 133142

One of the problems with illustrating drow is it’s difficult to illustrate characters with black - actually black, not brown - skin. So artists fell back on drawing them with brown skin. And at the time of that GDQ illustration, TSR artists were using real-world models for their work. Which is why they all look like extras from cheesy 80s action movies

It absolutely looks like the artist is trying to combine "black person" and "elf" to me. Notice the hair, which is absolutely nothing like typical elven hair, particularly. That's a bad example to pick if you're trying to say that wasn't intentional.