D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Alzrius]

That's a bad example to pick if you're trying to say that wasn't intentional.

It's a bad example, period. Not only does it not match the description of drow as originally presented in 1978's G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King (where that picture comes from), but as early as 1981's G1-3 Against the Giants, it was replaced with corrected artwork (which had no problem showing an individual with black skin against a black background). Here's a comparison of the original versus the replacement picture:

EDIT: So I'm not sure why the linked image was posted at such a reduced size; right-click and choose "view image" for a non-eyestrain version.

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.

 

[Oofta]

I've met literal neo-nazis who played D&D, and talked to one of them for quite a while (well, "berated" might be more of an accurate description, but I did listen to what he was saying), and it was abundantly clear from what he was saying that the "kill the inferior monster races" aspect of D&D was extremely appealing to them, as was the whole general vibe of "justified slaughter" - including of Drow.

I've also come across people who were very anti-inclusive, and in favour of "it's medieval so only white people should be in it" (and other weird-ass attitudes), who were extremely keen on that sort of "slaughter baddies on sight" stuff, and I don't think it's just a coincidence.

Apparently My Little Pony is also quite popular with neo-Nazis as well. People will find a way to project their racism into any game.

 

[Sacrosanct]

B) People who played older editions will know what the historical values were, new people will not.

I played 1e from 1981 all the way to 2012 before finally switching to 5e (although I still play 1e). Do I count as a player of older editions? Because honestly, there wasn't as much historical value in defined alignments in the stat block as you might assume. Alignment was really only used if you wanted to punish that insufferable paladin for straying (i.e., class restrictions but not really played that way in person), or a magic item or spell that was specific around alignment. 99% of the time it was largely ignored and players played their personality more than anything else anyway.

All I can say is that if I were teenaged me picking up the MM and every humanoid was "any alignment", I don't think it would have caught my imagination as much. It would also be more difficult to justify effectively always evil orcs* in my campaign.

The alignment in the stat block never inspired me, or caught my attention. The image did. And the fluff in the stat block did. The actual defined alignment underneath Intelligence did not. And once again, the flavor text has not changed so much. Unless you (general you) have never seen any fantasy movies, tv shows, or books, then I am extremely dubious that someone wouldn't know that orcs could be evil in your game world. Just not buying it.

I guess my real issue is that there's never room for compromise. No I don't think saying "no humanoid can ever default to evil" is a compromise unless by "compromise" it means "accept the one true way".

And yet here you are arguing that the one true way should be to have the default alignment be evil. Do you not see that irony

 

[Haffrung]

Look at the hair. I feel like you're dodging the issue.

And here’s one with straight hair. First official monster manual depiction. Again, does this look anything like African-American caricatures, or is it an evil elf with black skin?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Apparently My Little Pony is also quite popular with neo-Nazis as well. People will find a way to project their racism into any game.

Can we stop with the "there's no racism here, just you projecting or wanting to see racism because of you're own issues" please? That's no different, and just as unhelpul, and just as untrue, as saying people who want all orcs to be evil their campaigns are racist.

if a lot of people are seeing issues, that doesn't mean we're all just projecting and seeing racism where there is none. You're not the only one to keep inferring or implying this argument of projection. If you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. And I can't help notice these dismissive arguments like that are from people who most notably aren't part of the demographic that's been impacted, so if you can't see it, maybe you should ask yourself why, instead of ascribing disingenuous motivations to others who do.

 

[Scribe]

Can we stop with the "there's no racism here, just you projecting or wanting to see racism because of you're own issues" please? That's no different, and just as unhelpul, and just as untrue, as saying people who want all orcs to be evil their campaigns are racist.

if a lot of people are seeing issues, that doesn't mean we're all just projecting and seeing racism where there is none. You're not the only one to keep inferring or implying this argument of projection. If you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. And I can't help notice these dismissive arguments like that are from people who most notably aren't part of the demographic that's been impacted, so if you can't see it, maybe you should ask yourself why, instead of ascribing disingenuous motivations to others who do.

Absolutely anything truly racist towards real people should be removed. Like the Strahnd stuff.

 

[Oofta]

I played 1e from 1981 all the way to 2012 before finally switching to 5e (although I still play 1e). Do I count as a player of older editions? Because honestly, there wasn't as much historical value in defined alignments in the stat block as you might assume. Alignment was really only used if you wanted to punish that insufferable paladin for straying (i.e., class restrictions but not really played that way in person), or a magic item or spell that was specific around alignment. 99% of the time it was largely ignored and players played their personality more than anything else anyway.


The alignment in the stat block never inspired me, or caught my attention. The image did. And the fluff in the stat block did. The actual defined alignment underneath Intelligence did not. And once again, the flavor text has not changed so much. Unless you (general you) have never seen any fantasy movies, tv shows, or books, then I am extremely dubious that someone wouldn't know that orcs could be evil in your game world. Just not buying it.

And yet here you are arguing that the one true way should be to have the default alignment be evil. Do you not see that irony

You're being an absolutist. Alignment must go. I'm trying to find a compromise - keep a default value while making it more clear that you use it, modify it or ignore it as you see fit. My "one true way" is "here's some suggestions, but here are some equally valid alternatives".

You don't like or use alignment. Cool. A lot of people do.

 

[prabe]

And here’s one with straight hair. First official monster manual depiction. Again, does this look anything like African-American caricatures, or is it an evil elf with black skin?
View attachment 133147

So, if someone points out the issues with an illustration, you grab another illustration. Nicely done.

We're back to "black skin" and "evil to the core" as racial traits, and not seeing how that's a problem. Or, to be more generous, a mistake.

 

[Horwath]

I've met literal neo-nazis who played D&D, and talked to one of them for quite a while (well, "berated" might be more of an accurate description, but I did listen to what he was saying), and it was abundantly clear from what he was saying that the "kill the inferior monster races" aspect of D&D was extremely appealing to them, as was the whole general vibe of "justified slaughter" - including of Drow.

I've also come across people who were very anti-inclusive, and in favour of "it's medieval so only white people should be in it" (and other weird-ass attitudes), who were extremely keen on that sort of "slaughter baddies on sight" stuff, and I don't think it's just a coincidence.

So, did he became racist because he read some text about Drows, or was he FUBAR way before ever hearing about d&d?

On a side note, I think that it's great that those kind of people play D&D as every session they play, they are few hours too busy to patrol with their "militias" for "illegals" or banging their sisters. So it's a win for everyone.

 

[Charlaquin]

I would say that D&D can be played in a wide variety of ways. Saying that someone who doesn't have your exact preference is not lazy, it's insulting and comes off as being holier-than-thou.

You’re the one who called what you wanted “a lazy option.”