D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Scribe]

If they ham fist it or F it up it won't stick.

3E was sold as a return to the good ol days. Barbarians drinks, devil's are back etc. So was 5E.

If 6E flops JC and co get fired new designers are brought in and 7E is sold as a return to the old favorites.

The one thing no one her can predict is how it played out long term. 4E for example was the way forward tough luck until it wasn't.

Essentially all the opinions here are irrelevant the market will decide one way or another. That's the only reality that will matter.

In that respect perception is reality. The only truth here is no one can reliably predict which way it will go. 2E sold around half if 1E and 4E flopped.

As I said idk what way it will go but I'm fairly confident in how the end results will go.

Thing is, you dont need to make any massive changes to do away with what people dont like.

Alignment? It already is very very minor. I honestly believe that because Planescape is so much about the Outer Planes (and those = Alignment), we wont see it.

Culture? Whatever, Language and some Prof's? Easily handwaved.

ASI? Here's Tasha's as an option. Oh, not good enough, well now its the ONLY option. Cool?

They dropped the wall of the faithless in an Errata to the Sword Coast book.

Orcs with negative int? Gone.

Anything that is offensive is just written out of the next printing.

 

[HJFudge]

To make the game more inclusive. See this excellent post:

It is a good post. I am of mixed minds on whether art in a D&D book will make ANYONE feel more or less included but I will admit that perhaps it might. The discussion though is alignment? The post you quoted specifically calls out that alignment or a deep dive into lore won't have any effect, or none worth mentioning.

Change the art? Okay cool! I am convinced! Has...not that already happened? I confess it's been awhile since I cracked open a 5E book to look at the pictures. Is there still pictures making people uncomfortable in it?

This is a personal thing, maybe, so take THAT for what it is worth, but what has made me feel included or excluded from a group isn't art, nor alignments, nor the representation of my characters class or race or wealth or anything: It is how I have been treated by the other players at the table. There has been tables I have felt welcomed at. There have been tables where I have not felt welcome.

So again, why does changing the alignment for orcs or drow...matter? People will buy the books or they will not.

There comes a point where one must say: Why? If no one is being harmed...why change it? Why push for it? The only thing you OR I can do is to make those at our table feel welcome. To do that, I have to ask those people. No sociologist or SME or anyone will be able to tell me. This all really just feels like...posturing?

I guess I am saying: Stop looking to an authority to set the tone. You are the only one that can do that. It really is YOUR game. Run it as you wish.

What WOTC does or does not do...does not matter!

 

[CleverNickName]

Anything that is offensive is just written out of the next printing.

That's the way I would handle it, if I were a publisher.

 

[HJFudge]

They dropped the wall of the faithless in an Errata to the Sword Coast book.

Side note! I really enjoyed the concept of the Wall of the Faithless. One of the few things I really enjoyed about the setting. That said, I've very much stolen the idea...I think the video game Mask of the Betrayer was really interesting and it starred the wall of the faithless! Good game.

 

[BookTenTiger]

I guess I am saying: Stop looking to an authority to set the tone. You are the only one that can do that. It really is YOUR game. Run it as you wish.

What WOTC does or does not do...does not matter!

This to me is the big difference between racism and systemic racism. We can each individually make the choice to be inclusive. But those who create the system have a lot more power, because when people don't think about it and follow discriminatory rules, they are being discriminatory without intention.

I'm not saying that WotC has all the power of, say, the US Prison System, but it the company is literally in control of the system we use to play D&D. And if they can make changes and adjustments to make the system more inclusive, well I think they should. Because it's a kind thing to do. And because those who don't want to think about it, or who don't make the effort at their own table, enjoy the benefit as well.

And before anyone says "where's the line?", well, there is no clear line! It's a conversation, not a line. There is no clear demarcation of "inclusive enough" or "too inclusive." It's something that's figured out through difficult conversations and talks with cultural representatives and trial and error.

I honestly feel like this is a path D&D has been on for a long time, and it's a good one.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah well that’s just not true is it, because mindflayers don’t eat,

Then how do they self-sustain? Consuming the brains of other intelligent creatures - which has been part of their lore since forever - sure sounds like eating to me.

talk,

How do they communicate? (and before you answer "psionically", mind-to-mind communication is just the same as talking only without the sound parts and much faster/more efficient).

mate,

How do they reproduce? They have to reproduce somehow if only to sustain their species.

or mature like people.

On reproduction do they germinate/appear as fully mature mindflayers with all their abilities? And if yes, after that do they age; and do/can they eventually potentially die of old age? A no to the first question and-or a yes to the second immediately confirms a biological maturation process.

So I’m not really sure how you got that so wrong.

That's because I didn't.

I picked them because they are so very very alien. Perhaps failure to see that denotes a lack of perspective.

Yes they're alien, even to the fantasy settings. That doesn't mean they're necessarily all that different in how they function biologically; unlike, say, demons whose "life" cycle is vastly different from anything mortal.



side note: I know it's turned into a strange discussion when I find myself defending mindflayers...

 

[Einlanzer0]

Honestly this kind of naughty word is getting so off the rails that even liberals are sick of it. We need a paradigm shift.

 

[Scribe]

That's the way I would handle it, if I were a publisher.

Yep. Makes way more sense than to kick off a new edition with big bright 'look at all the stuff we are removing' that just kicks off edition wars and long forum threads.

I had to inform someone orcs don't have a negative int modifier, as they only had the original volos, and hadn't looked at the errata.

Just quietly let things that people may find offensive go, and we won't see a 4e kick back.

 

[Einlanzer0]

race essentialism

The problem has been found.

This modern trend of surfacing racism and sexism in everything and talking about them endlessly is a zeitgeist and a moral panic tied to little more than media & pseudoacademic brainwashing. Confoundingly, race and gender activism today manifests many of the same characteristics that gave rise to rise to Nazi Germany. I'm a bleeding heart liberal and even I can see that as problematic.

I don't think it will go that far here, but it is nevertheless an ideological movement not grounded in rational, scientific thinking, and it's also chock-full of double standards and half truths. I guess we'll have to wait for it to blow over.

 

[Scribe]

Side note! I really enjoyed the concept of the Wall of the Faithless. One of the few things I really enjoyed about the setting. That said, I've very much stolen the idea...I think the video game Mask of the Betrayer was really interesting and it starred the wall of the faithless! Good game.

You know I seem to think there was a long debate in the wall, and some folks hated it.

It suppose I'm just ignorant of the issue's it poses but I don't really feel today that it's that big a deal.