D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Scribe]

Oh no doubt it is lazy.

But is it harmful? He was not just claiming it was lazy. His statement was that this was doing actual harm. That it perpetuated stereotypes...I guess, I dont know, I dont have the adventure in front of me. Say that it does. In really weird ways. Okay.

Is his claim that because it did so, there is someone who of Romani descent who is suffering? Who has been belittled or talked down to or made fun of?

Shall, if we change it, we go to the Romani people and celebrate them that we have made a step in freeing them from the discrimination they now/once suffered?

That just seems foolish to me. At best. At worst, actively infantilizing.

No we have not freed anyone, but flip your argument.

Is there benefit to perpetuating stereotypes in media/art? Does that help...anyone?

 

[smetzger]

No, it's not. Demons and devils in D&D were causing no harm, it was a red herring presented by people that wanted to destroy the game. People inside of the hobby have come forward and said that certain parts of how D&D treats races/cultures are/have been harmful to them, to there is a real basis for this change, while there wasn't one for the Satanic Panic.

I have to disagree with this. Some people believe that playing games that depict demons/devils is harmful. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not. That is what they believe. This is what conservatives complain about liberals... things that a conservative christian believes can be dismissed as non-relevant and not worthy of inclusion.

 

[Haffrung]

The argument is that the depiction of Vistani in Curse of Strahd mirror offensive stereotypes of the Roma. And, yes, it's quite clear that the Vistini were modeled after cartoonish stereotypes found in old movies like The Wolf Man from 1941. Madam Eva in the module even serves the same role as Maleva the fortuneteller from that movie.

Which means they're crude and in poor taste. It's still hard to see a realistic chain of this causing real harm today to a real person.

Someone plays Curse of Strahd and is exposed to stereotypical depictions or Romani. Then what? How does this change their behaviour in real life? How does that behaviour cause harm to an actual person?

It seems to me that changing Vistani is just a way for the publishers to demonstrate to their customers that they're the sort of people who disapprove of crude stereotypes. Which is fine, and a perfectly understandable business decision. It's like a car dealership flying the national flag.

 

[Zardnaar]

What's this have to do with D&D?

Pointing out that a lot of people think they're doing well and they have good intentions but often make things worse.

There's people here using the exact same tactics they accuse the other side of doing which raise the hyperbole.

None of or opinions really matter that much one way or another the market will decide with 6E.

Tasha's for example effectively whitewashed the Drow not sure if that's an improvement or not ymmv.

It's kind of funny though.

 

[Horwath]

Honestly this kind of naughty word is getting so off the rails that even liberals are sick of it. We need a paradigm shift.

 

[HJFudge]

No we have not freed anyone, but flip your argument.

Is there benefit to perpetuating stereotypes in media/art? Does that help...anyone?

Stereotyping is a powerful storytelling tool. It can of course be used for evil or used poorly.

In a western, I am definitely going to have cowboy hats, six guns, spurs, and horses...cause that is the stereotypical western get up. It provides a cultural touchstone. My players will immediately recognize what I am talking about, I do not have to describe every little thing. I am going to do a very poor cowboy accent because....well a) I suck at accents and b) it will be fun.

No one is going to get up from my table and see a cowboy in a street and seriously think they are anything like the cartoonish portrayal I have made of them at my table. Their behavior towards that person will not change.

 

[MGibster]

Someone plays Curse of Strahd and is exposed to stereotypical depictions or Romani. Then what? How does this change their behaviour in real life? How does that behaviour cause harm to an actual person?

I'll be honest with you, as an American I don't really get what is or isn't a stereotype of the Romani. For the most part, they're just not a visible component of American life. In a country of nearly 330,000,000 people, those of Romani descent number about 1,000,000. I really don't know how harmful the depiction in CoS is. But if someone says something racist about a group of people I'm going to find that offensive even if I know nobody from that group will ever hear it. I'm going to be offended and would like for that person to stop saying such things.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Videos I'm not going to watch.

Please don't let this be the part of the conversation where people start posting videos to respond to videos.

 

[Scribe]

Stereotyping is a powerful storytelling tool. It can of course be used for evil or used poorly.

In a western, I am definitely going to have cowboy hats, six guns, spurs, and horses...cause that is the stereotypical western get up. It provides a cultural touchstone. My players will immediately recognize what I am talking about, I do not have to describe every little thing. I am going to do a very poor cowboy accent because....well a) I suck at accents and b) it will be fun.

No one is going to get up from my table and see a cowboy in a street and seriously think they are anything like the cartoonish portrayal I have made of them at my table. Their behavior towards that person will not change.

Tropes are not the same thing as negative stereotyping.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Stereotyping is a powerful storytelling tool. It can of course be used for evil or used poorly.

In a western, I am definitely going to have cowboy hats, six guns, spurs, and horses...cause that is the stereotypical western get up. It provides a cultural touchstone. My players will immediately recognize what I am talking about, I do not have to describe every little thing. I am going to do a very poor cowboy accent because....well a) I suck at accents and b) it will be fun.

No one is going to get up from my table and see a cowboy in a street and seriously think they are anything like the cartoonish portrayal I have made of them at my table. Their behavior towards that person will not change.

Now imagine instead of stereotypical Cowboy you reproduces the stereotypes of Native Americans from old movies. Would someone of Native American descent feel comfortable at your table?