D&D General It's not a video game.

[Hussar]

Well, I'd say, post-3E D&D is pretty videogamey. I'm starting to think that genre best suited for it is emulating diablo, lol.

But, anyway, honestly I personally enjoy playing modern adventure paths I've played/ran before much more than playing them fresh.

OD&D (1974) Vol I Men & Magic:

If you are a player purchasing the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS rules in order to improve your situation in an existing campaign, you will find that there is a great advantage in knowing what is herein. If your referee has made changes in the rules and/or tables, simply note them in pencil (for who knows when some flux of the cosmos will make things shift once again!), and keep the rules nearby as you play. A quick check of some rule or table may bring hidden treasure or save your game “life.”​

Dragon #10 (1977) Random Monsters, Paul Montgomery Crabaugh:

One of the problems with D&D is that the players always know too much. This is news? “You obtain surprise over three Clickclicks.”​

“Clickclicks? Oh, yeah, they’re in Supplement Three. Hand it to me. And where’s Greyhawk? It had a note about them.” A pause. “We​

shout out ‘November’.”​

“That’s right, the Clickclicks fall over dead.”​

Sound familiar?​

Can I just say, that seeing these two posts, one after the other, makes for some really delicious irony.

The more things change...

 

[iserith]

I forgot to include a negative experience I had as a player (I DM about 99% of the time) where the DM accused me of cheating because I did something unexpected. Moved to a new town, found a new group, made a new character, fell into an AD&D pit trap. Decided while I'm down here I'd check for treasure, etc. Ended up finding a secret door that while there, the DM didn't expect anyone to find. Got accused of "reading the adventure" because why else would I check for hidden things? Since I'd just joined the group, had no idea what the DM was running or that it even was from a module. Still a terrible experience to even be accused.

So, flipside. If you're going to make your accusation or confront someone, be damn sure you're right.

Yeah, it's weird, right? A person with or without the knowledge of what was in that pit can make the same choice to search for secret doors for any reason or no reason at all. The DM is not tasked with trying to figure out the reason for a player's choice, just whether the chosen action is successful, unsuccessful, or has an uncertain outcome. I don't know why a DM would really give a moment's thought to anything other than that. Just adjudicate the action and move on.

 

[Nefermandias]

I forgot to include a negative experience I had as a player (I DM about 99% of the time) where the DM accused me of cheating because I did something unexpected. Moved to a new town, found a new group, made a new character, fell into an AD&D pit trap. Decided while I'm down here I'd check for treasure, etc. Ended up finding a secret door that while there, the DM didn't expect anyone to find. Got accused of "reading the adventure" because why else would I check for hidden things? Since I'd just joined the group, had no idea what the DM was running or that it even was from a module. Still a terrible experience to even be accused.

So, flipside. If you're going to make your accusation or confront someone, be damn sure you're right.

Imagine setting up a secret door and then being mad when people find it.
Amazing.

 

[Dragonsbane]

Some people absolutely play D&D like they would a digital RPG. It's a valid way to play and can be a ton of fun.

My longest 4E campaign was like that. I introduced a group of friends to D&D, and their references were games like Diablo. It became clear to me that even though they enjoyed social interactions and investigating, they were driven by challenging encounters, tactics and obtaining loot.

I started building my campaign with few encounters (sometimes as little as one between long rests) but have them really push the party to its limit. They really enjoyed standing around the game mat and deciding together what were the best moves and making plans "if you do enough damage and he's bloodied, I can do this next turn".

It's definitely different. I tend to reprimand my players if they do too much backseat decision taking for others or try to control what other players do. But in this playstyle its almost encouraged.

Obviously, optimizing comes with it. Optimizing a character always seemed silly to me. But optimizing a party totally make sense. They would discuss and say stuff like "I'm thinking of picking this power next level that will allow me to push back enemies", and then they'd try and create synergy with their build choices.

I've ran something similar in 5E once, but it didn't last as long because of unrelated reasons.

Glad this works for some people. Personally, this invalidates the whole TTRPG thing. As if optimization isn't bad enough, players knowing the module, layout, monster stats.... one posted mentioned someone had the module open at the table ROFL.

So glad I have my table of players, some of them for decades....

 

[Dragonsbane]

Additionally, for anyone who finds this annoying, simply set what I call a MetaTrap. Let me explain

Curse of Strhad, there is a room behind a fireplace. Tons of loot there, unlike many parts of the adventure. A player seemed very interested in getting to it. Unfortunately, not only was there no loot, but there was a trap which teleported half the party to the other side of the large wilderness map, a dozen shadows came for the remaining people.

I often change main treasure spots and points of entry into places. Fixes the issue, as they have no idea what I have changed from then on. Keeps them guessing!

 

[Mort]

Additionally, for anyone who finds this annoying, simply set what I call a MetaTrap. Let me explain

Curse of Strhad, there is a room behind a fireplace. Tons of loot there, unlike many parts of the adventure. A player seemed very interested in getting to it. Unfortunately, not only was there no loot, but there was a trap which teleported half the party to the other side of the large wilderness map, a dozen shadows came for the remaining people.

Why not just move the treasure and done? If the player is metagaming, he learns not to trust his knowledge of the adventure. If he isn't -well no harm done.

Otherwise you are punishing the entire group (unsure of the level of that encounter but a dozen shadows can be a lot) on the mere suspicion that 1 player is metagaming - which seem an overly harsh solution.

I often change main treasure spots and points of entry into places. Fixes the issue, as they have no idea what I have changed from then on. Keeps them guessing!

Sure, that's always a good way to go.

 

[iserith]

Yes, all you really need to do is say you're changing at least some stuff, do so, and then remind the players that acting on assumptions is risky for both the player's fun and the character's life. If the player doesn't heed that warning, that's on him or her.

 

[overgeeked]

Yes, all you really need to do is say you're changing at least some stuff, do so, and then remind the players that acting on assumptions is risky for both the player's fun and the character's life. If the player doesn't heed that warning, that's on him or her.

Except when it ruins everyone else at the table’s fun. Or turns into the thing between the player and DM. It’s adversarial player vs the DM.

 

[iserith]

Except when it ruins everyone else at the table’s fun. Or turns into the thing between the player and DM. It’s adversarial player vs the DM.

If a player can make a choice in a game with or without the knowledge and arrive more or less at the same result, why is that going to ruin everyone else's fun? The secret door in the pit upthread is a good example. Why should the DM care about this?

Edit: Upon rereading, I see you may be referring to something else. So I'll add that acting on bad assumptions can happen even without a player having knowledge of the module. What I said in my last post is essentially paraphrasing the D&D 5e DMG which advises the DM to let players know to avoid metagame thinking. The examples given are players assuming that a given encounter can be beaten via combat because the DM wouldn't throw something at them over their level or spending more time than is necessary on investigating an otherwise normal door simply because the DM took care in describing it. Same deal with foreknowledge of a module's contents - acting on assumptions that the DM didn't change anything isn't smart play.

 

[Blue]

I think it's an related to power gaming & optimizing. Both treat the game as if it were a video game to be won.

There are plenty of reasons why gamers optimize, and "treating like a video game to be won" is but one possibility.

They both stem from MMO culture.

No, they also don't. Trust me, people were power gaming and optimizing before there was an internet. I can personally attest to that. MMO culture may have partially stemmed from that.

It's basically the same as players reading the Monster Manual and finding monster vulnerabilities...or any other form of metagaming.

Yes, it's been around awhile. Yes, I've dealt with it in real life. Yes, I've had players cheat by reading the module ahead of time. I think it's old and you're just noticing it now.

Metagaming is completely different from optimizing. Sure, a Venn diagram will have some overlap, but so would "people who believe dice superstitions" or "people who use names from Tolkien" - it's not meaningful. Metagaming is using knowledge your character would not have to do better. I personally am against it, but I know some of our regular posters don't even see a problem with it. Optimization is using mastery of the system in order to improve your character or your party. (And for completeness, minmaxers are a subset of that who try to minimize their weaknesses while maximizing their character's strengths.)

I have no beef with optimization as long as everyone at the table is having fun. Which often includes everyone optimizing, or the optimizers going for more support characters whom make everyone else shine and get spotlight.

But both metagaming and optimization long predate MMOs.