D&D 5E It's so hard to die!

[jayoungr]

I think a lot depends on how experienced your players are. If they know some basic tactics, they can take down foes way above their theoretical CR. One of my groups killed a lich in his lair (CR 23) at level 16. So you just push beyond that until you find the point at which they are challenged. That same group had a near-TPK (one character left standing with 1 HP) at level 17 when they unwisely aggro'd an entire tower full of angels.

 

[Ancalagon]

I don't know about pathfinder 2e, but in 1e you certainly can die. I had a level 9 magnus die on me (as a player) and that guy was a beast - very good defenses and hit like a giant blender. in our second pathfinder campaign we had close calls because of ability damage recently (level 8).

 

[the Jester]

Our deaths have always come not just from going to zero and failing death saves, but from going to zero and foes continuing to hit your prone body repeatedly after that. Each hit causes one negative death save result. Do that enough before other players with healing can respond, and you die.

If they're within 5', it is actually TWO failed death saves, since it's an automatic critical hit.

 

[Retreater]

I don't know about pathfinder 2e, but in 1e you certainly can die. I had a level 9 magnus die on me (as a player) and that guy was a beast - very good defenses and hit like a giant blender. in our second pathfinder campaign we had close calls because of ability damage recently (level 8).

I think 3.x/PF1 was the last of the lineage when I witnessed individual character death with any frequency. The death save mechanic might be to blame?

 

[jayoungr]

How 5E is played by most tables is why the "gritty" rest variant needs to be standard.

Why does it need to be standard? Do you believe most tables are not having fun playing 5E as written? Do you believe they would have more fun playing the "gritty" rest variant and just haven't realized it yet?

 

[tetrasodium]

Repeat the experiment, only this time have the dm not pull punches. Monsters use good tactics- focus fire, attack you when you're unconscious, etc. ESPECIALLY attacking when you're down. I think you might find that it's easier to die when the kids gloves are off.

It actually doesn't make much difference unless the pc goes down when all of these conditions are true
A There are multiple monsters.
B No matter what makes sense all of them target the player trying to die
C There are enough attacks to drop the player with one attack... force two failed death saves with a second... three execute with a third
D No player is positioned to drop healing word or any other method of healing between first and second or second and third attack. This one is critical and players will eventually begin to count on it as the defacto method of trivializing risk.

 

[CleverNickName]

Our deaths have always come not just from going to zero and failing death saves, but from going to zero and foes continuing to hit your prone body repeatedly after that. Each hit causes one negative death save result. Do that enough before other players with healing can respond, and you die.

Also, have your enemy spellcasters use more debuffs and anti-magic. Forget damage spells like fireball and lightning bolt; save those 3rd level spell slots to cast dispel magic on the party on round 1, and counterspell whenever the healers try to use healing word. Your encounter just got a LOT more interesting.

 

[tetrasodium]

Also, have your enemy spellcasters use more debuffs and anti-magic. Forget damage spells like fireball and lightning bolt; save those 3rd level spell slots to cast dispel magic on the party on round 1, and counterspell whenever the healers try to use healing word. Your encounter just got a LOT more interesting.

If the gm needs to drop a player and counterspell a first level healing word and eattack the downed player and attack the downed player again before some other player can healing word unless a second counterspell is fired off by s second caster it pretty much screams how serious the problem is because those two casters could just spam fireball or something and just kick the party of downed players into failing death saves but that's not a reasonable encounter

 

[the Jester]

It actually doesn't make much difference unless the pc goes down when all of these conditions are true
A There are multiple monsters.
B No matter what makes sense all of them target the player trying to die
C There are enough attacks to drop the player with one attack... force two failed death saves with a second... three execute with a third
D No player is positioned to drop healing word or any other method of healing between first and second or second and third attack. This one is critical and players will eventually begin to count on it as the defacto method of trivializing risk.

Have you tried it?

A. This isn't true at all. You need multiple attacks, which many- perhaps even most- monsters of even middling CR have.

B. Again, this isn't required. Only one foe needs to focus on the unconscious guy- for instance, one ghoul that stats to devour him- and suddenly the threat is very, very real.

C. I'm not sure what your point is here. Isn't this always the case- that to kill a pc, you have to do a bunch of damage here first? It sounds like you're reiterating point A.

D. Again, this goes without saying. Of course a pc won't die if someone else can heal them first.

Let's say the party is facing off against monsters with a claw/claw/bite multiattack. Only one monster needs to focus on the unconscious guy to kill him, and it will slay him in a single turn if it hits with two of three attacks. Let's say the monsters all go on one turn, and one monster drops a pc. The next monster in line can probably kill him before any other pc even has a chance to respond; this is one reason why all the analysis about how letting pcs go down and then bouncing them back up is flawed.

In my experience, most people who either complain or crow about how hard it is to kill pcs in 5e simply haven't been in a combat where the dm took the gloves off and gave it a good try. Ruthless play, no giving the pcs a chance to heal the downed guy, good tactics, no fudging the dice to save the party.

 

[NotAYakk]

I will say though that to do this the game would have to decouple health recovery time from class feature recovery time. You really can't put spell slot recovery on a 7-day Long Rest time table, the game breaks down. I've tried it, and spellcasters just end up not casting anything because they know they're going to have to wait 7 days to get their slots back and they feel like they have to save their slots for something really important that might happen down the line.

Yes, that is how 5e spellcasters where designed?

Every spell is a resource that they use when, and only when, it will swing the battle.

By mid-high levels, you start being able to cast lower level spells a bit less carefully.

It does require that adventures be paced around that 10-day timeline.

A "problem" has a difficulty scaled around (approximately) the DMG "adventuring day", and problems don't appear every day. They appear a few times a month. PCs spend much of their time in downtime between problems, which also includes long rest effects.

If you want a problem that is longer than 6-8 encounters, it has to consist of more easy encounters. And spellcasters have to husband resources for harder fights, or fights where the dice go against them.

If spellcasters are getting bored, handing out magic items like a wand of magic missiles or staffs of healing might help (note it refreshes on days, not rests).