D&D 5E Allow the Long Rest Recharge to Honor Skilled Play or Disallow it to Ensure a Memorable Story

[Dausuul]

Ugh, this is so unappealing to me. If you feel the need to hide something from your players, it’s a sign they probably wouldn’t want you to do it.

No, it isn't. Back in the TSR days, I can say quite certainly that a) I wanted my DMs to fudge things when necessary--because otherwise every campaign would come to an abrupt and bloody end whenever the DM misjudged encounter difficulty or the dice went bad--and b) I did not want to know specifically when they were doing it.

There is obviously a divide between players who are okay with DM fudging, and players who are not. If they're not, you shouldn't do it, and let the dice fall where they may. But among players who are okay with fudging, I have met very few--in fact, I'm not sure I've met any--who would want it to happen in the open.

Personally, I view fudging as a tool to compensate for the failures of the system; excessive randomness or badly balanced monsters (but not player tactics) causing encounters to be easier or deadlier than the DM intended. I don't think I ever once fudged when I was running 4E. I very seldom do so in 5E. In AD&D, though, it was standard operating procedure.

 

[Bawylie]

Right, this is partly my point. If a GM of 5E D&D does this.....adds or subtracts minions from a battle for considerations of what will be fun as a game, or memorable as a story....is that somehow in conflict with skilled play?

If not, then what did skilled play achieve?




Published or not doesn't matter.

And yes, I would agree that I was likely trying to strike a balance between promoting skilled play and an engaging experience (I don't want to say story and get punched!)....but I imagine that's something most games do.

And if these things need to be balanced as you suggest, doesn't that imply some conflict between them? At least potentially? So at times, we may need to pick one over the other in some way.

No it does not imply some conflict. I do a set of curls with my right arm, and then a set with my left arm. There is no conflict between my arms implied by a need to balance the workout. Not even potentially.

Yes, at times, I move one arm rather than the other arm. Sometimes I alternate. Sometimes I do both simultaneously. The need for balancing between the two remains without any conflict.

That’s all to say simply that the need to balance various priorities does not imply conflict between those priorities, inherently. We’d need to see how/why the pursuit of one priority necessarily (not circumstantially) interferes with the pursuit of the other and I haven’t seen that yet.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Whose fun?

The internet's.

Dude, my friends, who else even matters in this equation?

 

[abirdcall]

I reject the premise.

Doesn't sound like skilled play if they need to rest before reaching their objective.

If they rest they fail. Simple as that.

 

[Imaro]

The internet's.

Dude, my friends, who else even matters in this equation?

Which of course leads me to ask how do you know/decide what the most fun will be without their input?

EDIT: Your fun is also at stake.

EDIT 2: In other words if your friends have taken steps to get to that Long rest... and they actually take it... it would stand to reason they want the effect (easier encounter)... otherwise why do it? To diminish their own fun?

I think I chafe at this type of thinking because it seems to pre-suppose the players don't know what's good for them but the DM does.

 

[dave2008]

That encounter took place in the daytime (and there was no transformation, Dracula just jumped out a window and ran). During the daytime, Dracula can't transform, and if he's in his coffin, he can't leave. However, if he isn't in his coffin at sunrise, he can move around and do things, and the sun doesn't physically harm him.

That makes sense. As I was typing I got the suspicious feeling I was pulling in a scene from the movie: "Bram Stoker's Dracula." That is why I added the caveat. Thank you for the clarification!

 

[dave2008]

It's fairly explicit in that if the sun sets, they're pretty effed. However, since the book consists of journal excerpts, I suppose it could be argued that such a classification could be an error on the part of the character making it. It's been a while for me, too, so I could be off, as well.

Yes, I agree. Also, @Dausuul clarified that my memory of the contradictory scene was off: Dracula jumps out the window.

 

[Dausuul]

I think I chafe at this type of thinking because it seems to pre-suppose the players don't know what's good for them but the DM does.

How could the players possibly know in this scenario? The DM is acting on information (the difficulty of the final encounter) that the players don't have.

 

[Imaro]

How could the players possibly know in this scenario? The DM is acting on information (the difficulty of the final encounter) that the players don't have.

The players I think are angling for an easier fight if they took the precautions to set up a long rest right before confronting the BBEG... Otherwise why not rush in and attack?

EDIT: Also I'll turn this back on you... how can the DM know what would be most fun for them if he's not getting their input.

 

[jgsugden]

I don't see how the priorities can never conflict.

Skilled play (whether in resource management and resting, or more generally) is about optimising the prospect of victory at minimal risk.

Stories are almost always more interesting when victory took effort or required luck or came at some sort of cost.

If we think of stories in terms of war stories - eg the players recounting how their clever play let them beat up Strahd without even needing to use a healing spell during the fight - then I can see that there is no conflict, but I don't think @Manbearcat has those sorts of grognard let me tell you about the time we beat Tomb of Horrors stories in mind. He's talking about the actual story that unfolds via play - the rising action, climax, resolution of the fiction of the game as it unfolds.

Your misunderstanding is in the bolded statement. When victory requires luck, comes at a cost, or requires heroic efforts that stretch limited resources, you may have the elements of a good story. However, it is one path to that good story and there are many, many, many others.

Consider the end of Dr. Strange. It wasn't the traditional climactic battle where the hero was stumbling as they landed the final blow. The hero outsmarted Dormammu. Consider the end of Captain Marvel. When she unlocked her full power, she was just going to smack down the enemy and they could do nothing about it. Her power level blew her enemies away.

Schrodinger's Party is right outside the BBEG's door. They're low on resources and badly in need of a rest. They have two primary options:

1.) Rush in. They may have enough gas in the can to win the fight, or they might lose. It is drama. It is the recipe for a good story.

2.) They could retreat and rest. If they decide to do this, they have to worry about what it means. Will the BBEG prepare for them? Or flee? Will it get reinforcements? Will it hunt them while they rest? Will it negotiate with them once it learns that all of the minions that protected it are gone? It is drama. It is the recipe for a good story.

The original argument is inherently flawed because we should not choose between allowing players to play smart or creating a good story. We should create great options for the PCs to explore in a great story, whether they play skillfully, go for the fun over the efficiency (Charge is not always a good answer unless you're playing a Mountain Dwarf barbarian .... having a -1 Deception and lying a lot may not be very efficient, but it can be a lot of fun), or try to play smart but deserve a 'Bless Your Heart' for their tactics.

The PCs navigate your world. You tell a good story around their storytelling choices. There is no conflict between the choices the party makes in terms (in terms of resting or other decisions) and the quality of storytelling. When the moment of rest comes, the quality of story options are not impacted by whether the PCs can or can't rest in that situation.