D&D 5E Why do guns do so much damage?

[Oofta]

...
Because he's not interested in the damage done to the human body by the weapons, which is the topic of the thread, but instead interested in proving without question that guns are vastly more lethal than any melee weapon whatsoever. I've tried to steer him back on course, directly, tried to discuss the damage shown in videos he's actively posted, himself... And he just ignores it to declare victory.

Because it's not about the damage, for him, it's about the quantity of body bags.

But it's also comparing apples to oranges. Modern firearms versus knives is not the same as early firearms versus ... well virtually any weapon in the PHB.

End of the day, if you enforce the loading property and require proficiency I don't see a problem with firearms doing significantly more damage. Crossbow expertise hasn't come up in a home game yet, but much like that feat I do have an issue with the gunner feat taking away the loading property.

If your tech level is high enough to include semi automatic weaponry (or even bolt action) I think there are some issues.

 

[Steampunkette]

But it's also comparing apples to oranges. Modern firearms versus knives is not the same as early firearms versus ... well virtually any weapon in the PHB.

End of the day, if you enforce the loading property and require proficiency I don't see a problem with firearms doing significantly more damage. Crossbow expertise hasn't come up in a home game yet, but much like that feat I do have an issue with the gunner feat taking away the loading property.

If your tech level is high enough to include semi automatic weaponry (or even bolt action) I think there are some issues.

It's definitely a thing.

But yeah... I'm ultimately gonna go with the gunner/crossbow expert thing and just call early firearms breach-loaders for the purposes of the setting so that if someone wants to play a pistolero they -can-... But still give them damage more in line with other weapons in D&D for balance and personal satisfaction purposes. 'Cause D&D's early firearms do too much damage off the rip.

And then give the players who use guns the ability to improve their weapons with time and gold, same as any wizard with a spellbook or item they wanna enchant. I think it'll create a nice parallel. Especially in a setting where power is largely maintained by a small group who actively seek to keep other larger groups from accessing that power.

 

[Oofta]

It's definitely a thing.

But yeah... I'm ultimately gonna go with the gunner/crossbow expert thing and just call early firearms breach-loaders for the purposes of the setting so that if someone wants to play a pistolero they -can-... But still give them damage more in line with other weapons in D&D for balance and personal satisfaction purposes. 'Cause D&D's early firearms do too much damage off the rip.

And then give the players who use guns the ability to improve their weapons with time and gold, same as any wizard with a spellbook or item they wanna enchant. I think it'll create a nice parallel. Especially in a setting where power is largely maintained by a small group who actively seek to keep other larger groups from accessing that power.

I keep thinking about introducing firearms in an experimental campaign just to see how well it would work. Play a few sessions with different options, all the way up to 19th century firearms. Maybe make a new blunderbuss/shotgun (or even machine gun) type weapon that's strength based because controlling the recoil is more important than overall accuracy.

Depending on how proficiency is handled I can see firearms being most useful for caster types that would rely on tech instead of cantrips.

In any case, good luck!

 

[Steampunkette]

I keep thinking about introducing firearms in an experimental campaign just to see how well it would work. Play a few sessions with different options, all the way up to 19th century firearms. Maybe make a new blunderbuss/shotgun (or even machine gun) type weapon that's strength based because controlling the recoil is more important than overall accuracy.

Depending on how proficiency is handled I can see firearms being most useful for caster types that would rely on tech instead of cantrips.

In any case, good luck!

For Machine Guns and stuff you'd probably need to create some sub-rules for area attacks and strafing fire type maneuvers.

Though if you take a look at LevelUp/A5e's combat maneuvers one of the archery ones could be adapted well for Covering Fire. Basically you pick a target and any time they'd provoke an attack of opportunity from someone by moving you spend ammo and they no longer provoke that opportunity attack.

Of course for a fire-arms focused game you'd need ranged opportunity attacks for that to work against! Maybe some sort of "Field of Fire Cone" that characters can toss down as "This is my threatened area for guns"?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hmm:



Unusually low mortality of penetrating wounds of the chest. Twelve years' experience - PubMed


Penetrating chest wounds: 24 years experience - PubMed



A comparative audit of gunshot wounds and stab wounds to the neck in a South African metropolitan trauma service


DEFINE_ME

Gunshot wounds are significantly more lethal than stab wounds.

Modern gunshot wounds vs a sample of overwhelmingly knife wounds, sure.

No one is walking around a major city anywhere in the world with a dagger as thick as a sword, nor is a knife as heavy or as long, nor do they have the reach, and are thus much easier to turn an attack into less major injury.

The two aren’t even comparable.

 

[Thunder Brother]

To stray of topic just a little, I do really like the idea of fantasy firearms that operate using something besides gunpowder, like the steam-powered muskets from Last Exile.

To DnDify it, I imagine a particularly mad artificer binding a steam mephit into a gun and hoping for the best.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Honestly, it's possible that one could up the damage of blackpowder firearms or something, having them be balanced by issues like keeping the powder dry, and the difficulty it takes to reload powder, wad, and ball.

You have one shot, and after that, unless you have the time or speed to do a reload, best to use it as a club.

And in the case of pistols, just have multiple pistols loaded so you're ready for action.

Of course this is probably all at earlier levels. By later levels, I suspect a lot of weapons just aren't damaging enough to players generally unless magical or enhanced in some manner.

By mid levels you'd be looking for magical guns, which would of course exist, and without deciding first on what the rules for those should be it's impossible to speculate.

IMO, the gun rules from the DMG area good enough. The cost keeps them from being too common, but they're also not game-breakingly powerful in any sense. High damage + long reload times (ie 1/encounter weapons) could work, too. But trying to compare the relative lethality of guns and swords is both a big enough question for a PhD thesis and not useful to the goal of having more fun at the table.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To stray of topic just a little, I do really like the idea of fantasy firearms that operate using something besides gunpowder, like the steam-powered muskets from Last Exile.

To DnDify it, I imagine a image a particularly mad artificer binding a steam mephit into a gun and hoping for the best.

I’ve used the idea of an explosively expanding liquid in small vials before, which was fun. You can allow for stuff like spending spell slots to overcharge the shot, and developing better chemical mixture, etc.

I mean you can do so with gunpowder too, but for some reason people take to it more with alchemical concoctions.

 

[Fanaelialae]

To stray of topic just a little, I do really like the idea of fantasy firearms that operate using something besides gunpowder, like the steam-powered muskets from Last Exile.

To DnDify it, I imagine a image a particularly mad artificer binding a steam mephit into a gun and hoping for the best.

I like such implementations myself. I suspect that players more readily accept "magitech" guns that don't fit their perceived notions of how guns ought to function in the game, versus rules that attempt to simulate historically accurate firearms.

For an upcoming campaign I'm planning to include guns that utilize a special alchemical preparation which produces a non-Newtonian fluid. This substance "freezes" when struck, rapidly releasing stored energy that propels a piece of the frozen substance like a musket ball. It's basically an alchemical dead end that was discovered in the search for the Magnum Opus, but became popularized for its military applications.

 

[Steampunkette]

To stray of topic just a little, I do really like the idea of fantasy firearms that operate using something besides gunpowder, like the steam-powered muskets from Last Exile.

To DnDify it, I imagine a particularly mad artificer binding a steam mephit into a gun and hoping for the best.

Brilliant!

I’ve used the idea of an explosively expanding liquid in small vials before, which was fun. You can allow for stuff like spending spell slots to overcharge the shot, and developing better chemical mixture, etc.

I mean you can do so with gunpowder too, but for some reason people take to it more with alchemical concoctions.

Brilliant!

I like such implementations myself. I suspect that players more readily accept "magitech" guns that don't fit their perceived notions of how guns ought to function in the game, versus rules that attempt to simulate historically accurate firearms.

For an upcoming campaign I'm planning to include guns that utilize a special alchemical preparation which produces a non-Newtonian fluid. This substance "freezes" when struck, rapidly releasing stored energy that propels a piece of the frozen substance like a musket ball. It's basically an alchemical dead end that was discovered in the search for the Magnum Opus, but became popularized for its military applications.

Brilliant!

I'm only using guns for the visual aesthetic and social commentary about the throttled control of power through a magical allegory, so firearms that are by function alchemical or outright magical work plenty well compared to real world weaponry.

It would also give me the more comfortable design space to do things like unique ammo types to separate the function of a crossbow from a gun, such as alchemical acid rounds, goo-shots, and other control-centric functions.

Though I am a little worried that such options would wind up pigeonholing firearms as an "Alternate Magic" route, rather than weaponry. I'll have to examine my options.