D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Yora]

Well, a sandbox is simply a wooden box filed with sand thst you can shape into the terrain of various different battlefields to move your tin soldiers around. They are still used as visualization aids by militaries today. That's what wargames were invented for. (Though officers immediately started playing with them just for fun, and could tell their wives that they are "totally working" with their coworkers deespite the laughing coming through the door all night.)

Player agency is a very simply comcept that really only matters in the context of railroading, which is when it's taken away. It's nothing more fancy than the simple ability of players to make decisions and take actions that have an impact on what will happen next. It's actions having consequences, players being able to chose the actions of their characters, and players being able to tell the difference between their options.
It doesn't mean that the players get what they want. They still can misjudge their chances or suffer a bad roll. But when the players have agency, then they had a meaningful choice to do something else instead.
I guess it wasn't given a name early on because it was simply assumed to be a given. But people found ways to make the players dance on their strings and still believe that they are playing a meaningful game.

 

[Hussar]

I said all spells, not all their spells. All the spells a caster knows/prepares is a small subset of just the spells in the PHB. That 3-4 casters is somewhat misleading, since it's unlikely that a 5 person party has that many full casters.

Forcecage is pretty potent at bypassing combat encounters. Heck, many of the exploration bypassing spells you seem to be complaining about, like Pass Without Trace, are equally good at bypassing combat.

Modify memory is great for social encounters (just give them a memory of agreeing to do what you want). Or you can go the blunt way and just charm/dominate them.

There are lots of spells that allow you to easily beat combat and social encounters as you increase in level.

If your idea of an encounter that evokes curiosity and wonder is a waterfall, then it's no surprise you don't think it can be done effectively.

Good grief. Modify Memory is a FIFTH level spell with an extremely narrow use. You're seriously comparing the impact of a spell that won't even see play until the mid levels, at the earliest, to spells that multiple classes get at 1st level and often aren't even an expendable resource?

Like I said earlier, this discussion is pointless. The false equivalencies that keep getting brought up are so frustrating.

 

[Hussar]

Are you saying that things become muddled because it's up to the DM as when checks are necessary or not? Like, if we use the pit trap as an example, that different DMs will treat detecting and noticing the trap in different ways?

Of course they will. That's part and parcel of the system.

Does your passive perception detect traps? Do you have to state that you are looking for traps?

If I find a chest, rather than a pit trap, what skill would I use to detect the trap in that chest? Investigation or Perception? Totally depends on the DM. This is meant as a feature of the system, and is quite clearly labeled as such.

 

[Hussar]

As far as terminology goes, things like Player Agency may have been given a label later on, but, railroading was always an issue that was being discussed and, let's be honest, that's what Player Agency is talking about. Same as Social Contract. Wolfgang Baur (sp) coined that one I believe, and it's now pretty much standard language when discussing table issues.

Labels and jargon are simply useful shorthands.

 

[Hussar]

Ok, in the interest of being thorough, and hopefully to show my work and forestall all these counter claims that really aren't my issue, I'm going to present a list of all the exploration challenge bypassing spells that are either cantrips, rituals or permanent/long lasting effects that can be cast before the next long rest.

Note, if the issue was that only high level magics could do this, I'd have no argument at all. Choosing a 5th level Modify Memory spell is a major investment for most casters. That's a significant bite for several levels. You are likely, at least for the foreseeable future, only going to have 4 5th level spells known, so, that's a very large investment. Cantrip? 1st level spell/ritual? That's a minor investment that is easily spread around the two full casters and two half casters your group very likely has. Again, it made more sense in AD&D where spell resources were much more limited. A cleric that didn't take Cure Light Wounds in all (or almost all) their 1st level slots was likely going to get some serious flak from the rest of the table. Now? Now you have one 1st level spell that does duty for all Cure spells that existed in AD&D. One slot out of the cleric's dozen or so by 5th level needs to be burned by a Cure Wounds spell. Not exactly a major investment.

Anyway, sorry about that. I got spun off on a tangent. Stupid brain. Must punish it with more coffee. Take that brain! So, without further ado, here's my list of exploration winning/bypassing spells:

Cantrips:
Dancing Lights
Druidcraft - predict weather for 24 hours (totally annoying to the DM who has virtually no idea what tomorrow's weather is going to be and something that is almost never listed in a module)
Guidance - Actually, this one is a bit of a toss up. So many exploration activities are longer than 1 minute. So, basically, it becomes the major bonus to check for traps, listening, that sort of thing. Not a major problem to be honest.
Light
Mage Hand - never have to worry about most traps ever again.
Mending - great for resource recovery.
Produce Flame

First Level rituals/long lasting
Alarm - my current group uses this to great effect.
Comprehend Languages
Create Water (non ritual) (permanent)
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and disease
Find Familiar
Floating Disk - woohoo, we now have a somewhat annoying bag of holding at 1st level. 500 pounds of free weight.
Goodberry (non ritual)- note, can be cast before a long rest, used the next day. No more foraging needs
Identify
Purify Food and Drink
Speak with Animals - VERY DM dependent
Unseen Servant - again, bypass traps with ease. Open pretty much any door/chest/whatever isn't locked, from 60 feet away.

On that list there are two spells that would actually cost any resources. Note, most of those spells appear on multiple caster lists.

Like I said, in a standard party of Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and one half caster - you've got three characters who can do this stuff pretty easily with minimal investment. The other two pillars have none of this sort of thing. This is why I say exploration is so problematic in 5e.

 

[mrpopstar]

Does your passive perception detect traps? Do you have to state that you are looking for traps?

We use passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to determine whether anyone notices a hidden threat, and traps are hidden threats.

If I find a chest, rather than a pit trap, what skill would I use to detect the trap in that chest? Investigation or Perception? Totally depends on the DM. This is meant as a feature of the system, and is quite clearly labeled as such.

Intelligence (Investigation) and Wisdom (Perception) are coded and concrete, providing anchors upon which the players and Dungeon Master can commonly agree.

It's up to the DM when to call for a check, but it's not up to them to call for either/or willy nilly like they don't have clear applications outlined in the rules.

Ok, in the interest of being thorough, and hopefully to show my work and forestall all these counter claims that really aren't my issue, I'm going to present a list of all the exploration challenge bypassing spells that are either cantrips, rituals or permanent/long lasting effects that can be cast before the next long rest.

Note, if the issue was that only high level magics could do this, I'd have no argument at all. Choosing a 5th level Modify Memory spell is a major investment for most casters. That's a significant bite for several levels. You are likely, at least for the foreseeable future, only going to have 4 5th level spells known, so, that's a very large investment. Cantrip? 1st level spell/ritual? That's a minor investment that is easily spread around the two full casters and two half casters your group very likely has. Again, it made more sense in AD&D where spell resources were much more limited. A cleric that didn't take Cure Light Wounds in all (or almost all) their 1st level slots was likely going to get some serious flak from the rest of the table. Now? Now you have one 1st level spell that does duty for all Cure spells that existed in AD&D. One slot out of the cleric's dozen or so by 5th level needs to be burned by a Cure Wounds spell. Not exactly a major investment.

Anyway, sorry about that. I got spun off on a tangent. Stupid brain. Must punish it with more coffee. Take that brain! So, without further ado, here's my list of exploration winning/bypassing spells:

Cantrips:
Dancing Lights
Druidcraft - predict weather for 24 hours (totally annoying to the DM who has virtually no idea what tomorrow's weather is going to be and something that is almost never listed in a module)
Guidance - Actually, this one is a bit of a toss up. So many exploration activities are longer than 1 minute. So, basically, it becomes the major bonus to check for traps, listening, that sort of thing. Not a major problem to be honest.
Light
Mage Hand - never have to worry about most traps ever again.
Mending - great for resource recovery.
Produce Flame

First Level rituals/long lasting
Alarm - my current group uses this to great effect.
Comprehend Languages
Create Water (non ritual) (permanent)
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and disease
Find Familiar
Floating Disk - woohoo, we now have a somewhat annoying bag of holding at 1st level. 500 pounds of free weight.
Goodberry (non ritual)- note, can be cast before a long rest, used the next day. No more foraging needs
Identify
Purify Food and Drink
Speak with Animals - VERY DM dependent
Unseen Servant - again, bypass traps with ease. Open pretty much any door/chest/whatever isn't locked, from 60 feet away.

On that list there are two spells that would actually cost any resources. Note, most of those spells appear on multiple caster lists.

Like I said, in a standard party of Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and one half caster - you've got three characters who can do this stuff pretty easily with minimal investment. The other two pillars have none of this sort of thing. This is why I say exploration is so problematic in 5e.

This is a lot of research! Nice.

Like I said, in a standard party of Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and one half caster - you've got three characters who can do this stuff pretty easily with minimal investment. The other two pillars have none of this sort of thing. This is why I say exploration is so problematic in 5e.

Side note: The average party size is four, so the "standard" party would include just the cleric, fighter, rogue and wizard.

 

[Faolyn]

Most of your assessments are fairly accurate. But:

Druidcraft - predict weather for 24 hours (totally annoying to the DM who has virtually no idea what tomorrow's weather is going to be and something that is almost never listed in a module)

I can actually see this as a useful bit for the DM. Tell them that druidcraft predicts a major storm, then let them spend time working in advance to escape the brunt of it. And then the aftermath of the storm is going to mess up future exploration.

Also, most future-divinations in D&D are of the "things can still change; nothing is set in stone" mentality. Considering all the weird things that can affect the weather in D&D, ranging from spells to monsters to the whims of the weather gods to dire butterflies flapping their wings half a world away, I'd tell the PCs that druidcraft is actually about as accurate as their local news station meteorologist. Useful, but not perfect.

Mage Hand - never have to worry about most traps ever again.

Unless you're an arcane trickster (and not entirely sure about it then), you can't really use the hand for detail work like disarming a trap. It's also not hard to shift to traps with moving parts that are heavier than 10 pounds, or to assume that intelligent trap makers don't take mage hands into consideration. Heck, a spellcaster might include a trap that only goes off the trapped object is touched by a magical force.

First Level rituals/long lasting

These, of course, depend on the caster having the spell prepared (or at least in their book, for wizards). You can't do much with divine casters who can prepare anything, but for wizards at least, the DM has control over what spells they find.

Create Water (non ritual) (permanent)

But do they have a container to store the liquid in? While just breaking the PCs stuff usually isn't fair, there's still the possibility that they lose their waterskins and don't have anything else to carry water in. Having to cast that spell each time you're thirsty will be a pain in the spell slots.

Perhaps talk to the players about instituting a rule wherein if the PC takes a lot of damage all at once, there's a chance that some of their non-magical gear might break. You could even institute the notch rule from Darker Dungeons, which says (among other things) that mending doesn't work on completely broken objects (I'd say it does, but you have to upcast it to at least 1st level).

Speak with Animals - VERY DM dependent

Just remember, animals mostly want food, safety, and (depending on the time of year) sex. And speak with animals doesn't raise their Intelligence any...

Unseen Servant - again, bypass traps with ease. Open pretty much any door/chest/whatever isn't locked, from 60 feet away.

This spell has the same issues as with mage hand, except that it can carry 30 pounds instead of 10. Plus I'd say it's probably weightless so it's not going to trigger any floor traps.

 

[Asisreo]

Ok, in the interest of being thorough, and hopefully to show my work and forestall all these counter claims that really aren't my issue, I'm going to present a list of all the exploration challenge bypassing spells that are either cantrips, rituals or permanent/long lasting effects that can be cast before the next long rest.

Note, if the issue was that only high level magics could do this, I'd have no argument at all. Choosing a 5th level Modify Memory spell is a major investment for most casters. That's a significant bite for several levels. You are likely, at least for the foreseeable future, only going to have 4 5th level spells known, so, that's a very large investment. Cantrip? 1st level spell/ritual? That's a minor investment that is easily spread around the two full casters and two half casters your group very likely has. Again, it made more sense in AD&D where spell resources were much more limited. A cleric that didn't take Cure Light Wounds in all (or almost all) their 1st level slots was likely going to get some serious flak from the rest of the table. Now? Now you have one 1st level spell that does duty for all Cure spells that existed in AD&D. One slot out of the cleric's dozen or so by 5th level needs to be burned by a Cure Wounds spell. Not exactly a major investment.

Anyway, sorry about that. I got spun off on a tangent. Stupid brain. Must punish it with more coffee. Take that brain! So, without further ado, here's my list of exploration winning/bypassing spells:

Cantrips:
Dancing Lights
Druidcraft - predict weather for 24 hours (totally annoying to the DM who has virtually no idea what tomorrow's weather is going to be and something that is almost never listed in a module)
Guidance - Actually, this one is a bit of a toss up. So many exploration activities are longer than 1 minute. So, basically, it becomes the major bonus to check for traps, listening, that sort of thing. Not a major problem to be honest.
Light
Mage Hand - never have to worry about most traps ever again.
Mending - great for resource recovery.
Produce Flame

First Level rituals/long lasting
Alarm - my current group uses this to great effect.
Comprehend Languages
Create Water (non ritual) (permanent)
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and disease
Find Familiar
Floating Disk - woohoo, we now have a somewhat annoying bag of holding at 1st level. 500 pounds of free weight.
Goodberry (non ritual)- note, can be cast before a long rest, used the next day. No more foraging needs
Identify
Purify Food and Drink
Speak with Animals - VERY DM dependent
Unseen Servant - again, bypass traps with ease. Open pretty much any door/chest/whatever isn't locked, from 60 feet away.

On that list there are two spells that would actually cost any resources. Note, most of those spells appear on multiple caster lists.

Like I said, in a standard party of Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and one half caster - you've got three characters who can do this stuff pretty easily with minimal investment. The other two pillars have none of this sort of thing. This is why I say exploration is so problematic in 5e.

That's a mighty fine list but right now, you're in a stone room. Inside the room, there's 2 exits. One is a stone door and the other an iron door. The iron door appears to be locked. There's also a desk covered with notes, a bookshelf, a red carpet, and a chest.

Tell me, how does your druid "win" this scenario?

 

[Eubani]

That's a mighty fine list but right now, you're in a stone room. Inside the room, there's 2 exits. One is a stone door and the other an iron door. The iron door appears to be locked. There's also a desk covered with notes, a bookshelf, a red carpet, and a chest.

Tell me, how does your druid "win" this scenario?

A single sculpted example where you set artificial limits is not the I win button you think it is.

 

[iserith]

Cantrips:
Dancing Lights
Druidcraft - predict weather for 24 hours (totally annoying to the DM who has virtually no idea what tomorrow's weather is going to be and something that is almost never listed in a module)
Guidance - Actually, this one is a bit of a toss up. So many exploration activities are longer than 1 minute. So, basically, it becomes the major bonus to check for traps, listening, that sort of thing. Not a major problem to be honest.
Light
Mage Hand - never have to worry about most traps ever again.
Mending - great for resource recovery.
Produce Flame

I addressed dancing lights, light, and produce flame upthread in response to your previous assertions. Here's the post. As to the others, here goes:

• Druidcraft. The DMG has weather tables right on page 109.
• Guidance. As you note, the task needs to be shorter than a minute. I set most tasks at 10 minutes (for a given sized area) - search for traps or secret doors, figure out how they operate, pick a lock, loot, etc. Not much of an issue here.
• Mage Hand. First you have to find the trap. But even so, I don't think one can say mage hand will obviate the need to worry about most traps. Some, maybe.
• Mending. I know many DMs treat it as "fix anything," but the spell has its limits. It can only repair a single break or tear in an object that is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension. If the object was shattered or has more than a single break or tear, you're out of luck.

First Level rituals/long lasting
Alarm - my current group uses this to great effect.
Comprehend Languages
Create Water (non ritual) (permanent)
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and disease
Find Familiar
Floating Disk - woohoo, we now have a somewhat annoying bag of holding at 1st level. 500 pounds of free weight.
Goodberry (non ritual)- note, can be cast before a long rest, used the next day. No more foraging needs
Identify
Purify Food and Drink
Speak with Animals - VERY DM dependent
Unseen Servant - again, bypass traps with ease. Open pretty much any door/chest/whatever isn't locked, from 60 feet away.

On that list there are two spells that would actually cost any resources. Note, most of those spells appear on multiple caster lists.

Like I said, in a standard party of Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and one half caster - you've got three characters who can do this stuff pretty easily with minimal investment. The other two pillars have none of this sort of thing. This is why I say exploration is so problematic in 5e.

• Alarm. Yes, quite useful. It's 11 minutes per ritual casting though. What's the frequency of wandering monster checks? What's the opportunity cost of having, say, the wizard unavailable to figure out how a secret door or a trap works? Or your ranger keeping watch for danger? And if it is a ranger casting it, they had to prepare it which is one fewer hunter's mark. Okay by me.
• Comprehend Languages. Great spell. Anyone other than a wizard has to prepare it - one fewer Tasha's hideous laughter, armor of Agathys, shield, etc. - and you have to touch the thing you're reading. Safer to know the language, if possible. Opportunity cost to ritual cast it versus doing other exploration tasks too. (When are those wandering monsters going to come calling?)
• Create Water. Addressed this in my post upthread. Others did too, by pointing out the need for containers. Ten gallons plus the necessary containers to hold it weighs a lot, particularly with the variant encumbrance rule in place.
• Detect Magic. Opportunity cost on exploration tasks when cast as a ritual, must be prepared by non-wizards so that's one fewer 1st-level spell to bring to bear in combat, wandering monsters, etc. You now see magic stuff in the area and know its school of magic. Great! Now what? The exploration challenge isn't necessarily over yet.
• Detect Poison and Disease. This spell needs to be prepared so that's one fewer entangle or hunter's mark - fine by me! See also Detect Magic for the trade-offs. And the exploration challenge isn't necessarily over yet either.
• Find Familiar. Addressed in my post upthread.
• Tenser's Floating Disk. Address in my post upthread.
• Goodberry. One fewer entangle or hunter's mark because you don't feel like foraging while traveling or carrying some rations is just fine by me. Having actual food is also pretty useful when it comes to dealing with ravenous beasts in my experience.
• Identify. Great spell if you're pressed for time, but you may as well just wait for the next short rest, if trying to figure out what a magic item does. As with all rituals, it has a time cost - what can happen during that time? What other useful task aren't you doing while you're casting the ritual?
• Purify Food and Drink. I'd love to see a paladin burn a potential smite on this spell. The cleric and druid will have to prepare it, too. What other useful combat spell might they have prepared instead? And again, opportunity cost on other tasks and wandering monsters when?
• Speak With Animals. Strikes me as more of a social interaction challenge spell. As for being DM dependent, the whole game is that way. I tend to be generous with information from animals, if the PCs succeed at the social interaction challenge. Simply talking to the squirrel isn't a guarantee that he'll tell you about more than his nuts.
• Unseen Servant. Useful in some circumstances, but again, this might only work on some traps. And if the traps do damage to the unseen servant, they're gone (1 hp). With a Strength of 2, they can't carry much or push/pull/drag with very much force. As with others, opportunity cost on other tasks if cast as a ritual.

So what you've done here is present a list of useful tools the players can bring to bear in many situations. But none of them are free of costs or trade-offs when actually put into the context of situations where there is at least some time pressure or urgency (which, per the DMG, random encounters are for in part as are event-based adventures). I think anyone who has a strong exploration element in their games sees these trade-offs and costs come up again and again. The players have to make meaningful choices as a result. That's certainly been my experience. There's no I-win button here.