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D&D General Styles of Roleplaying and Characters

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prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
You can quibble, and question the motivation of the player, but, again, we're discussing the motivation of the player at this point, and why they've chosen to exercise their absolute control over the character in this way. However the player justifies, or doesn't deign to do so, this is just part and parcel of their control.
Sure, but I was thinking that you might be mustering, in spite of yourself, a character who is convinced of his own superiority in contradiction of the evidence, and you might have to think some about what that means, and how that works. I certainly would (and all instances of "you" above are "you as in anyone" not "you as in Ovinomancer").
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Sure, but I was thinking that you might be mustering, in spite of yourself, a character who is convinced of his own superiority in contradiction of the evidence, and you might have to think some about what that means, and how that works. I certainly would (and all instances of "you" above are "you as in anyone" not "you as in Ovinomancer").
Sure. It is, however, not required. I've seen plenty of cases of "I have this trait, so I'm gonna hammer it no matter what" rping before, and from people that considered themselves quite the good roleplayers. Opinions can differ (obviously), but not that how the character will be is going to be entirely up to the player -- there's no direct way that alters this. You have to change the player's mind first.

Or charm them, in which case the change only lasts as long as the duration.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
Sure. It is, however, not required. I've seen plenty of cases of "I have this trait, so I'm gonna hammer it no matter what" rping before, and from people that considered themselves quite the good roleplayers. Opinions can differ (obviously), but not that how the character will be is going to be entirely up to the player -- there's no direct way that alters this. You have to change the player's mind first.

Or charm them, in which case the change only lasts as long as the duration.
In the case of the example from TLoU, how much control does the player have over how the character reacts to that particular failure of nerve (which seems to be the result/decription of a failed check of some sort, as I understand? Like a blown Panic check in Alien?)? It seems as though the player should have some input, there--though the system may dictate otherwise.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
In the context of most D&D play, the conflation is not wrong: the goal of play is to succeed at "the mission", whatever exactly that might be (acquiring loot from the dungeon or lairs; defeating the opponents; solving the mystery/plot the GM is presenting to the players).

In the context of this sort of play, subordinating pursuit of the mission to the presentation of one's character runs a real risk of being disruptive - as one sees frequently discussed on this and other forums.
And I'm just fine with this. Not all adventuring parties are always going to get along perfectly, and nor should they; and if following one's character turns out to disrupt party unity then so be it - let 'em fight.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Regarding "styles of roleplaying", I think I'd like the following answered in this thread by as many respondents as possible (all related to conception of PC):

1) Should a conception of a PC be encoded prior to play? That is to say, is it a good thing to come into play with a high resolution backstory in mind or is it a good thing to come into play with a more malleable character (some rough ideas on backstory, present conception, and possible trajectories but letting play do much of the shaping)?

2) Who/what "owns the majority share" of the conception of a PC? Is it:

a) The premise of the scenario/adventure path.
b) The player who is playing the PC to the near exclusion of all other interested parties.
c) Some combination of player + table + system (action resolution and its attendant fallout changing characters as play evolves...perhaps fundamentally) with scenario/adventure path premise having an extremely minority claim.

3) If someone says (i) high resolution backstory/conception to (1) and their answer to (2) is (b), then what happens when your own input into action resolution and the related system-derived outcomes deeply challenges your granular conception of your PC that you feel is (nearly) exclusively yours? What happens then (meaning...are you deeply unhappy? Is this deemed a system problem...a GMing problem?)? Put another way, to this cross-section of the gaming community:

Are you responsible for bringing into play a highly granular, deeply conceived PC and is the system/GM then responsible (outside of your own responsibility) to ensure play encodes this conception into the story that emerges?
In sequence:

1) No matter how much pre-conceived backstory etc. you've got, if you're not willing to allow the run of play to shape the character going forward you're likely to end up fighting against the game and-or story. If you're cool with this conflict, no problem - go for it.

2) b all the way. The character belongs to its player, end of story. That said, the player has to be willing to let the character evolve based on its in-fiction expreiences during play.

3) Neither. The character is what it is. The game / story is what it is. They are separate things and don't need to be connected if the player doesn't want them to be.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
In sequence:

1) No matter how much pre-conceived backstory etc. you've got, if you're not willing to allow the run of play to shape the character going forward you're likely to end up fighting against the game and-or story. If you're cool with this conflict, no problem - go for it.

2) b all the way. The character belongs to its player, end of story. That said, the player has to be willing to let the character evolve based on its in-fiction expreiences during play.

3) Neither. The character is what it is. The game / story is what it is. They are separate things and don't need to be connected if the player doesn't want them to be.

Although we obviously strongly disagree on some points of game philosophy, posts like this make me think we are really not so far apart in practice.

I used to bicker (and still do, decades later!) with a teammate in college. One day a mutual friend said, “You guys grew up in rival states, went to rival private schools, and now you’re in rival positions in the same sport. And all you do is argue. You do realize that the rest of us can barely tell you apart, right?”
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I never answered this: I hadn't really thought about it, but maybe it's because I've DM'd that adventure? Or the DM slipped up with his layering in our VTT? Or I noticed that every square with a Fibonacci number is trapped but my 7 Int barbarian wouldn't know that? Does it matter?
Well yes, to a point. If I've been in or DMed an adventure before and realize it's what's being run now, I'll mention this to the DM up front and, if needed, bow out for that adventure. (it's common practice here to ask who's been in/run what just to avoid this sort of awkwardness)

If the DM slips up with the VTT layering, not much can be done there - except to do the wise thing and not play via VTT! :)
But that got me thinking. Let's say it's the math answer: I, the player, have realized there's a pattern to the traps, and with two squares to choose from, I'm pretty sure one is trapped, but my thick-skulled barbarian probably wouldn't know that. How does one handle it? (Note: I really don't want to make this about which option is "true roleplaying" I just think it's interesting to discuss how different people would do it.)

Here are some options I can think of:
- Act on it or announce it because...why not? What's the problem here? 7 Int isn't a vegetable, and sometimes not-bright people have flashes of insight.
- Say nothing and let the rest of the party decide what to do.
- Let the dice decide for you with an ability check
- Choose the correct path, but give a roleplaying reason, e.g. mysterious sixth sense for traps, "damn the torpedoes", etc. (Note: this doesn't necessarily mean you are deceiving the rest of the table; they may be ok with this style of play.)
- Intentionally make the wrong choice
In situations like this, which come up all the time, my usual out-clause is to roll a d20 and try to get under the character's Int. score*, perhaps modified by the difficulty of the situation. For example, if the traps were every other square it'd be a straight roll-under heck but for the Fibonnaci example I'd probably need to roll a 1. This also covers the "flash of insight" option.

* - roll-under really is a wonderful mechanic for this sort of thing!
Oh, and the follow-up question is: let's say the player is right and there is a trap on square 55...or at least the DM has previously decided there is one there...but the DM has their own ideas about how this should unfold. Is it ok to change the location of the trap after the player has made their decision?
Hard-line no.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
In sequence:

1) No matter how much pre-conceived backstory etc. you've got, if you're not willing to allow the run of play to shape the character going forward you're likely to end up fighting against the game and-or story. If you're cool with this conflict, no problem - go for it.

2) b all the way. The character belongs to its player, end of story. That said, the player has to be willing to let the character evolve based on its in-fiction expreiences during play.

3) Neither. The character is what it is. The game / story is what it is. They are separate things and don't need to be connected if the player doesn't want them to be.
The only thing I'm inclined to quibble with is your 3). How can a character be inside a story and not be connected to it?
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The only thing I'm inclined to quibble with is your 3). How can a character be inside a story and not be connected to it?
Easy: the character's going along on adventures x y and z only because they'll help advance her own stories a b and c, and has no interest in any story that might make x y and z relevant in any other way and-or to anyone else.

And after z, she'll leave to pursue her own interests elsewhere.
 

pemerton

Legend
Define "choice of game".

If I have a miserable time playing D&D, I don't necessarily need to revisit my choice to play D&D. There are many possible reasons for the miserable result, only one of which is the ruleset itself. I may need to revisit how I am playing D&D - it isn't like there's only one way to play.
I'm curious as to why you didn't apply your suggestion to @pemerton's statement but instead assumed that he must be speaking about switching systems?
Well, the game I had in mind is the one that has the sort of structure I had pointed to in my post to which you (Umbran) replied and had described in a bit more detail not far upthread of that post. Namely, a game in which there is a "mission" that establishes a success condition, be that the sort of loot-extraction that characterises Gygax-ish D&D, the overcoming-of-the-challenges-presented that characterises (say) what seems a fairly common approach to 3E and 5e, or the resolve-the-mystery/plot/scenario presented by the GM, which has been common in D&D at least since the 2nd ed AD&D era.

This sort of game is characterised by a particular sort of prep phase for the GM participant - be that building the dungeon (maps, keys) or working out the scenario (often maps here too, as well as timelines and event sequences) or writing up the encounters (more maps, stat blocks). And by a certain sort of expectation on the players - that they will engage that prepped content in the appropriate spirit.

Now there's no stopping human creativity and genre subversion, and apparently even way back in the day there were dungeons which, when properly mapped, spelled out jokes or rude words or whatever. Maybe those dungeons had ogres in them that threatened to argue the PCs to death a la Monty Python treated as literal rather than ironic? - I don't know for sure. But at a certain point it seems to me to make sense to ask the following: if we don't like the structure and premise of the play we're purporting to engage in, why are we still doing it?

As to whether this involves changing rulesets, that depends on what one treats as the identity conditions for a ruleset. I've recently discovered the cooperative card game The Crew. It's a whist variant: there is a deal of hands, then an auction phase (in which "tasks" ie requirements to win particular tricks) are allocated, and then a card play phase. Good play uses the standard skills of whist-like games: keeping track of which cards are played in which suits, noting and exploiting voids, etc. But unlike (say) five hundred it's fully cooperative rather than a combination of cooperation (between partners) and competition (between partnerships), and this changes the dynamic of play.

We can look at D&D through this same sort of of lens of what stays the same and what changes. If you change the XP rules for D&D, for instance, you can get a game with a rather different dynamic even if the basics of PC build are much the same. Or consider overlaying the Honour rules from the original OA, which create a new variation of something like an alignment subsystem which brings with it expectations that certain new sorts of scenes (eg duels and non-combat contest) will be part of the game, and generate new build demands (eg non-weapon proficiencies) to go with them,

In 4e D&D - to pick a version of D&D that I know well - as amplified by the DMG2 and Rules Compendium, XP are awarded for engaging in any encounter (skill challenge XP are earned whether the PCs win or lose; combat XP are earned for defeated foes whether or not the PCs win the combat overall or not), for achieving goals which the system encourages to be player-authored (Quest XP), and for otherwise spending time engaging the fiction even if the action is not being resolved via mechanics (as per the DMG2). In other words, basically any engagement with the game earns XP and hence, over time, levels. And the treasure parcel system means that any earning of levels earns treasure, with the system encouraging the GM to accommodate that treasure to player preferences (eg via "wish lists).

So in 4e D&D, we have basic elements of PC build that are recognisable even to a AD&D player (the six attributes, hit points, defence numbers, skill bonuses that resemble NWPs, lists of player abilities that resemble spells or OA ki powers, etc). But what does it mean to have my PC act suboptimally? I know what that means in Gygaxish AD&D - because my PC is reckless I charge down the hallway without checking for traps and get ganked by a scything blade. My PC is injured or even dead and I've earned no XP and not really progressed us towards our goal. But in 4e the significance of exactly the same series of events is completely different (eg confronting a trap is worth XP, as per the encounter rules; and hit point loss plays out with a completely different mechanical significance because of the healing rules).

In AD&D - and here the actual play experience I have in mind is my own play of OA in the mid-to-late 80s - if we change the PC build rules to include families, loyalties, aspirations for honour, etc; and the GM changes the way setting is authored and presented having an eye on these things; and we change the XP rules to reward overcoming challenges and achieving goals independent of treasure gained (which at the time I had kinda done in a piecemeal fashion following a Dragon article; and some character classes had their own rules for this, like shukenja earning XP for healing NPCs); are we still using the same ruleset? I don't have a dogmatic view on that, but it's clearly not identical. And I can report from my own case that it significantly improved the play experience.

And to finish this post: if a group wanted to keep the "mission" structure as the basic spine of their fiction; but wanted to encourage players to portray characters in a way that is somewhat orthogonal to the mission; then I would suggest looking at how XP-for-Milestones works in Marvel Heroic RP. Sticking to the "official" goals of play under those circumstances just seems a bit counterproductive.
 

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