D&D 5E Roleplaying in D&D 5E: It’s How You Play the Game

[Lanefan]

You keep saying PC and I am a bit confused... if I have a great idea (me the player not the character) and the other player across the table is good at it can I just advise him OUT of game, or do we have pretend my CHARACTER (PC is player CHARACTER) is adviseing someone better then me?

In my game it's neither of the above. Doesn't matter if you-as-player have a better idea, if your character wouldn't think of it then it's generally on you-as-player to stay quiet and let the other players roleplay their characters as they see fit.

 

[Bill Zebub]

In my game it's neither of the above. Doesn't matter if you-as-player have a better idea, if your character wouldn't think of it then it's generally on you-as-player to stay quiet and let the other players roleplay their characters as they see fit.

Seriously?!

No Thank You, Evil!

 

[Oofta]

Fair enough. We send the wizard around to the back door and have him cast Knock. When the guard runs around back to check it out, the rest of us walk in the now unattended front door. The wizard runs as soon as the guard turns the corner, leading him on a merry chase, casting invisibility to get away if necessary.

This is not so much a question of how they resolve it (there are many, many options) or how I would run it. It's a question of you would run it at your table.

I think the issue is (player)out of game ability compared to (character) in game ability is such a vast argument that there is no way to just break it down no matter how many examples we give.

Maybe. I guess I was trying to describe something that happened in a game a while back and cut to the stealth scene to keep it simple. Yes, if the PCs have knock and have it prepared it's something they could cast. I don't remember it ever being used in any game I've ever played in any recent edition, the drawbacks are just too high. Obviously different people have different experiences.

How I would run the Casting knock scenario:
DM: "What do you do?"
Bob: "We've decided that Fizbin will go to the back and cast knock to open the back door."
DM: "Okay, you're trained in Arcana and you know that this will be clearly heard out to 300 feet, roughly 3 square blocks. It's loud."
Bob: "Yep, that's what we're doing."
DM: "You get to the back of the warehouse, it's a back alley with limited lines of sight. You'll have to be within 20 feet of the door in order to see it."
Bob: "Sounds good. I try to find some cover and cast the spell."
DM: "You hide behind a bale of something that smells of mildew and rot and cast the spell. Out front, you guys hear a thunderous boom and the guard snorts and wakes up, looking around with alarm. He pulls a something out of his pocket and speaks into it after standing up. "
Sue: "Perception 8 to see what he pulled out?" [If she had just asked if she could see what he pulled out there would have been no roll].
DM: Sue can see it pretty clearly, no roll was necessary but it doesn't bother me that she rolled. I do need a check to see if she knows what the stone is. "He pulled out a small stone. Give me an Arcana or History check." She may have advantage based on her background such as urchin or spy.
Sue: rolling dice "16 history"
DM: "You remember that sending stones are often given to guards in this district, especially those associated to The Spiders, a notorious criminal organization".

At that point it's just up to the PCs what they do. Attack the guard who is no longer just an innocent bystander but a member of a criminal organization? Hope they can get whatever they need before reinforcements show up?

It's a mix of things I'll just tell the PCs because of their training, different styles of declaring and resolving actions. What I won't do is change a DC.

The stealth scenario? Much simpler.

The group could:

• Send Fizbin's familiar walking down the street to see if the guard notices.
• Cause some noise off to the side to distract the guard and grant the rogue advantage because they are helping.

When the rogue goes they could say

• "I carefully approach the front door, keeping an eye on the guard looking for any signs of movement or shifting of his head. I use the wagon and barrels for cover and wait for any indication he's distracted." As a DM I'll ask for a stealth check unless it's my wife's PC who can't get less than a 25.
• State that they are sneaking up to the door and that they got a 17 on their stealth check. I assume they're taking advantage of the available cover and watching the guard carefully. After all, this is what their PC is good at.

The DC for the stealth check will be the same in either case - anything from automatic because guard is sound asleep, a 15 because they're drowsy and bored but awake, a 25 because he was just pretending be asleep but the rogue is trained to time things just right. Maybe it's impossible because there's an invisible sentry they didn't know about.

What I won't do? I won't change the DC based on the description of how the rogue sneaks up to the door.

How they declare the action doesn't matter to me. They don't need to state the goal, I know what the goal is in this scenario. They don't even have to go into much detail on how they do what they do as long as it's obvious.

 

[Lanefan]

So how about this scenario:

The PCs need to get into a warehouse. Their informant has told them that there's a back door but it's barred from the inside at night so it can't be opened from the outside without some sort of magic. If it comes up the DM reminds the players that knock can heard up to 300 feet away. If someone can get inside they can open the back door. You'd rather not kill any guards if it can at all be avoided.

Casing the place, the PCs notice several things

• There's a single guard but they're sitting about 10 feet away from the front door, sitting on a barrel slumped against the wall. You can't tell if they're awake or not.
• The streets at night are deserted, there are crates and barrels along with a wagon on the street. You might be able to sneak into the front door without being noticed, you can't tell.
• The warehouse also has a cupola on the roof for ventilation, you could probably get in that way if you can get up to the roof. There is a drain pipe for the eves on the side of the warehouse out of sight from the guard that might support someone but you're not certain. In any case it could be difficult climb up.

How would you handle this scenario?

As a player it'd completely depend on what I had as a PC.

I've played some who would have crept up and slit that guard's throat before you'd finished narrating the scene, and then rifled his pockets for loose change while giving the party the all-clear.

I've played others who simply wouldn't go on such a criminal venture, preferring (and insisting) that we wait until daylight and then find the warehouse owners to ask if we could be allowed access and-or how much said access might cost.

I've played one or two that would just light the place on fire and let the chips fall where they may, because being on fire makes everything better.

And knowing our typical parties, chances are very high that these plus several other approaches would all be taken simultaneously!

As a DM if their casing of the place was good enough to give all the above info they'd get it, on which - given as there's a plethora of options here - I'd go into react mode based on what they did next.

 

[Lanefan]

Seriously?!

Yes, seriously.

Play your character, not someone else's. (players offering uninvited suggestions to other players is one of the biggest sources of out-of-character arguments around here, and it's taken decades of smackdown-hammering to get people to bloody well stop doing it)

 

[pemerton]

"Not appropriate" is imposing a lot of subjective opinion and personal preference. I'd be ok with "kind of weird" and "difficult to maintain".

I don't really see the difference, here, between not appropriate, relative to the conventions, rules, expectations etc of play and kind of weird. Both are judgements of deviation from a norm.

I mean, here's the Basic PDF again (pp 7-8):

Much of what your character does in the game depends on his or her six abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. Each ability has a score, which is a number you record on your character sheet. . . .​

​

Bob decides to use the standard set of scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) for Bruenor’s abilities. Since he’s a fighter, he puts his highest score, 15, in Strength. His next highest, 14, goes in Constitution. Bruenor might be a brash fighter, but Bob decides he wants the dwarf to be older, wiser, and a good leader, so he puts decent scores in Wisdom and Charisma. . . .​

​

Strength​

Measures: Natural athleticism, bodily power . . .​

​

Dexterity​

Measures: Physical agility, reflexes, balance, poise . . .​

​

Constitution​

Measures: Health, stamina, vital force . . .​

​

Intelligence​

Measures: Mental acuity, information recall, analytical skill . . .​

​

Wisdom​

Measures: Awareness, intuition, insight . . .​

​

Charisma​

Measures: Confidence, eloquence, leadership . . .​

​

Take your character’s ability scores and race into account as you flesh out his or her appearance and personality. A very strong character with low Intelligence might think and behave very differently from a very smart character with low Strength.​

​

For example, high Strength usually corresponds with a burly or athletic body, while a character with low Strength might be scrawny or plump.​

​

A character with high Dexterity is probably lithe and slim, while a character with low Dexterity might be either gangly and awkward or heavy and thick-fingered.​

​

A character with high Constitution usually looks healthy, with bright eyes and abundant energy. A character with low Constitution might be sickly or frail.​

​

A character with high Intelligence might be highly inquisitive and studious, while a character with low Intelligence might speak simply or easily forget details.​

​

A character with high Wisdom has good judgment, empathy, and a general awareness of what’s going on. A character with low Wisdom might be absent-minded, foolhardy, or oblivious.​

​

A character with high Charisma exudes confidence, which is usually mixed with a graceful or intimidating presence. A character with a low Charisma might come across as abrasive, inarticulate, or timid.​

Abilities are measures which are conveyed by scores. REH's Conan possesses tremendous bodily power and vital force, which are measured by STR and CON respectively. So I really don't see how it is consistent with the text I've quoted to imagine a PC with STR 8 and CON 10 to be imagined, by their player, as having the thews, physique, and general physicality of REH's Conan.

So an optional suggestion.

I don't really see the descriptions of what the ability scores measure as optional.

If your PC has STR 8 and CON 10, it's not appropriate to imagine them as having the mighty thews and physical prowess of REH's Conan!

My warlock looks like Fabio, but it is all just looks, he's really not strong at all.

So just to be clear, you're not imagining your PC having the mighty thews and physical prowess of REH's Conan?

 

[Lanefan]

I'll riff off what @Maxperson said:


We'll assume the guard at the front is the only one outside. That one, in a panic, looks around and, seeing nothing, hops off the barrel and runs to the back to see that wily wizard and... two other guards burst out from the back door as well! Chase rules begin.

We shift the scene back to the front of the warehouse where the rest of the party opens the door walks into the warehouse to find... something new they need to deal with that the DM describes. "What do you do?"

These sound to me like consequences arriving now for a collective party fail earlier on its casing and info-gathering.

Ther best-known info had only one guard outside and (in theory) none inside, and didn't show any other defenses.

 

[Lanefan]

So, this is interesting, because in HoML there are 'practices' (IE rituals and similar stuff) you can use, but one of their features is the 'pay for auto-success' button. In other words, by spending a power point the PLAYER can make that determination (and obviously is motivated to do so mostly at the most significant junctures since power points don't grow on trees). You get to be the most awesome climber evar! and the player gets more say.

Yeah, I try to avoid those sort of meta-currencies like the plague and this is a good example of why: it causes glaring character inconsistencies in the fiction.

Suddenly the party's usually-clumsy tank is running up the wall like one of the warriors in Crouching Tiger...which is fine if it's a) explainable in the fiction (in this case probably via a series of spells starting with Spider Climb) and b) repeatable on demand via the same in-fiction explanation (in this case, casting the same string of spells again would give the same result).

 

[Swarmkeeper]

How I would run the Casting knock scenario:
DM: "What do you do?"
Bob: "We've decided that Fizbin will go to the back and cast knock to open the back door."
DM: "Okay, you're trained in Arcana and you know that this will be clearly heard out to 300 feet, roughly 3 square blocks. It's loud."
Bob: "Yep, that's what we're doing."
DM: "You get to the back of the warehouse, it's a back alley with limited lines of sight. You'll have to be within 20 feet of the door in order to see it."
Bob: "Sounds good. I try to find some cover and cast the spell."
DM: "You hide behind a bale of something that smells of mildew and rot and cast the spell. Out front, you guys hear a thunderous boom and the guard snorts and wakes up, looking around with alarm. He pulls a something out of his pocket and speaks into it after standing up. "
Sue: "Perception 8 to see what he pulled out?" [If she had just asked if she could see what he pulled out there would have been no roll].
DM: Sue can see it pretty clearly, no roll was necessary but it doesn't bother me that she rolled. I do need a check to see if she knows what the stone is. "He pulled out a small stone. Give me an Arcana or History check." She may have advantage based on her background such as urchin or spy.
Sue: rolling dice "16 history"
DM: "You remember that sending stones are often given to guards in this district, especially those associated to The Spiders, a notorious criminal organization".

At that point it's just up to the PCs what they do. Attack the guard who is no longer just an innocent bystander but a member of a criminal organization? Hope they can get whatever they need before reinforcements show up?

Ah, this is helpful to be able to compare and contrast.


How I would run the Casting knock scenario at our table (using the same player responses with some notes):

DM: "What do you do?"
Bob: "We've decided that Fizbin will go to the back and cast knock to open the back door."
(note: at our table, it's up to the players to know what their spells do. I'm not going to advise them one way or another - unless it is something that had no chance of being cast, in which case I'd let them declare some other action)
DM: (to Fizbin) "The back of the warehouse is a back alley strewn with debris and with limited lines of sight. The light is dim making the door impossible to see from more than 20 feet away."
Bob: "Sounds good. I try to find some cover behind the debris and cast the spell."
DM: (to Fizbin) "The debris is a bale of something that smells of mildew and rot."
DM: (to rest of party): "Out front, a thunderous boom can be heard from the back of the warehouse and the guard snorts and wakes up, looking around with alarm. He pulls a stone of his pocket and speaks into it after standing up."
(we avoid the player's question here by describing the thing which is automatically seen)
Sue: "I think Zara has seen something like this before in the days when they were a spy, but can't be sure."
DM: (to Zara) "Give me an Intelligence check with advantage because of your background. The DC is 15. On a success, I'll tell you exactly what it is. On a failure, I'll tell you what it might be but the guard is going to catch sight of something in Zara's direction. Still up for it?"
Sue: "Sure. I'm applying my History proficiency (rolling dice) 16!"
DM: (to Zara) "This is a sending stone, often given to guards in this district, especially those associated to The Spiders, a notorious criminal organization".

 

[Swarmkeeper]

These sound to me like consequences arriving now for a collective party fail earlier on its casing and info-gathering.

Ther best-known info had only one guard outside and (in theory) none inside, and didn't show any other defenses.

There was no info on what was inside so... yeah, could be anything or nothing. I made something up assuming the players didn't get that info either. I didn't design the scenario so...