D&D 5E D&D Races: Evolution, Fantasy Stereotypes & Escapism

I think you guys are having a correlation and causation issue, the way orcs are described don't necessarily match the way racists describe people of color and indigenous people because Orcs are deliberately coded as such, they match because racists describe their targets using 'monster' words in the first place to justify hurting them. The depredations of Orcs historically are more inspired by say, real world atrocities like the Mongol Invasions (Tolkien in particular refers to his Orcs as Mongols outright), which do reference real world people of color, but not exactly in the way critics generally utilize in their arguments because it doesn't support the power dynamics they're attempting to establish for them to be a cultural memory of horrific oppression manifesting in the zeitgeist of history-- they also bring industrialization for instance, and their main fortress is in the north (Angmar.) If you take it to its logical conclusion, particularly considering Tolkien's views and experiences, and his desire before his death to write a follow up story about the redemption of the orcs, they come across like a corrupted enemy ala the Germans in both world wars.

I think that the early DND authors give them more problematic elements when working out their culture though, specifically when they make them specifically tribal, specifically 'primitive' and give them 'shamans' and such, and sort of rip them away from 'us but corrupted by dark magic and turned into monsters' to 'naturally terrible and uncivilized.' This is a little diluted by parallel representations that are at least nominally better-- in other words you have more on the nose analogs being used that aren't as pejorative. e.g. the early game had Hobgoblins with Samurai Armor in 1977... but it also had an official Samurai option for the heroes as early as 1976? Dragonlance features a positive (but certainly stereotypical and reductionist) depiction of a Native American inspired culture in 1984, and while I can't find a source, I believe Greyhawk had a human depiction much earlier?

That strain of 'primitive orc' was then adopted by Warcraft (which then becomes bastardized in to Warhammer), but then used to soften the depiction into a "noble savage" pretty quickly (Warcraft 3), which then intertextually comes back to us in DND as authors wanted to make them more sympathetic and appealing, I think, before being deconstructed by the current movement-- but the current movement simplifies the history a lot to fit it's conception of the past it's fighting against, which you can definitely see in the handful of pundit pieces that went viral on this subject, which simplify this push and pull to the idea of direct coding.

There's also the separate issue of the idea of simulated immoral activity as reinforcing real immoral activity here, last I checked the prevailing literature is that, for example, "Numerous studies have shown no connection between video games and violent behavior; the American Psychological Association state there is little to no evidence connecting violence to video games, though do state there is an increase in aggression that can result from playing violent video games." (Wikipedia) with aggression here, to clarify the seeming contradiction, seemingly referencing competitiveness and outspokenness. In other words, playing such a game doesn't necessarily cause harm by making anyone more racist. The need for empathy is more in terms of how the depiction might make someone feel targeted itself by mirroring elements of their own life or heritage in a pejorative, targeted way, but ironically, that would suggest that building the connection and awareness of harm is itself harmful, in the same way that Trigger Warnings are harmful by priming the victim to experience harm.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


What happens when you humanize orcs and hobgoblins and the like? For example, maybe the hobgoblin leader is a war mongerer, and the hobgoblin army violent towards civilians in general; but there are also hobgoblin towns with ordinary people, individuals who are uninvolved with the war, or against it, and hobgoblin soldiers who are "just following orders." Similarly, maybe not all orcs but this particular group of orcs are indeed bandits who are harassing the local settlement and disrupting merchants; and maybe there is another group of orcs that steps in to protect the merchants, or maybe the town is built on a site of importance to the orcs who have been displaced.

For the DM, the above requires worldbuilding. Creating complex factions in your world that are anchored into the setting with established relationships to each other. What does this faction want? What does it not want? What are its methods? Are there internal disagreements?

For the players, doing this prompts roleplaying. Now the orc or hobgoblin threat is a problem to be solved, with combat being one of many options on the table.

I understand that the tactical combat aspects of dnd are appealing, and an overly nuanced narrative can get in the way of that. But I find the more the players are invested in their characters and in seeing the world through that lens, the less likely they are to default to combat, and the more that fantasy-massacre will feel inappropriate. Not necessarily because of the real-world analogy, though that's there too, but because they don't want to play characters who massacre sapient beings. Killing everyone in the hypothetical goblin village is not escapism, because now they feel bad that they didn't come up with a better solution to the problem (and if the DM is doing their job, perhaps the goblin-massacre leads to more problems for the PCs).

The 5e monster manual lore and dmg advice, extensive and verbose as it is, doesn't really do much to afford this style of play. It defines PCs being "heroic" as using their superpower, high magic abilities to progress through a series of balanced encounters culminating in a "boss fight." My personal opinion is that this is really shallow worldbuilding and unsatisfying for roleplaying.
 

Thanks Hussar. I'm using your comment as a jumping off point (which is to say, nothing below has anything to do with the specific you).
Thank you and I most certainly am not taking anything you said personally. Been very even handed. ((I'm rather guilty of not being very good at not sounding accusatory - which is why I try to add disclaimers when I remember. ))
/snip
  • My other problem with a lack of ideation and brainstorming is that frankly, it sounds (to me) like a bunch of people complaining so hard they can't see what to do next. I sympathize how people who are in deep emotional pain are not capable of seeing a step ahead to future outcomes. But if you're not in that category of emotional pain, how awesome would it be to do more ideation and creative solutions?
Well, frankly, I'm not really sure a "creative solution" is needed to be honest. Other than, "don't do this anymore." Sure, it's a bit blasé and a bit boring, but, it gets to the point and moves us forward. Don't depict orcs using the same language that was used to describe minorities. Don't depict humanoids as monolithically evil. It's more a "hey, y'know this stuff that's been done in the genre so often that it's not even questioned? Yeah, don't do that." :)

I know that's not really terribly exciting, but, I don't think we need exciting really. The fact that speculative fiction as a genre has finally realized that for most of its history, it's been a cesspit of bigotry is really the main step here.

Didn't Rome also use similar language to describe most European "Barbarians"?

But let's say for the sake of discussion you are 100% correct above. Is it not acceptable in fantasy to explore non-human races that actually possess such negative characteristics in the fantasy world as opposed to reality where such negative characteristics are falsely applied to a human race?

Sure?

Who cares?

Does it somehow justify the racism and bigotry of the genre because Romans did it? I mean, I'm certainly not going to look to the Romans for a source of morality.

Again, it's not the problem that orcs are evil. Or orcs have negative characteristics. After all, LOTS of creatures in D&D are evil and it's not a problem. It's that the language used to describe orcs is directly parallel with the language that was, and still is in some parts, to describe black people and various other minorities. It's not really all that complicated. If, upon reading the description of a fantasy race, you can then turn to some Jim Crow era text and the descriptions are nearly word for word identical - don't do that.

I'm frankly not sure how much more clear it needs to be.
 

Well, frankly, I'm not really sure a "creative solution" is needed to be honest. Other than, "don't do this anymore." Sure, it's a bit blasé and a bit boring, but, it gets to the point and moves us forward. Don't depict orcs using the same language that was used to describe minorities. Don't depict humanoids as monolithically evil. It's more a "hey, y'know this stuff that's been done in the genre so often that it's not even questioned? Yeah, don't do that." :)

OK you're not sure, but do you want to think about it further?

None of this is intended as a criticism or interrogation, but I'm just trying to clarify and maybe encourage you to introspect what your stated end goal is, if that makes sense?

To clarify your pronouns, who do you mean re: "don't do this anymore"? Me? WoTC? Tournament play? DMs and players playing a private game at home? I'm presuming WoTc and conventions are already moving in this direction, no? If so, does that mean your "don't this anymore" refer to the imagined fictions of all citizens of the world who play D&D? Or maybe just all Enworlders, but Redditors can do what they want?

What do you mean by "moves us forward"? Who is "us"? People who are hurt by D&D racist tropes? Would "us" cannot move forward until the problem is wiped off the planet? Or can "us" move forward as long as private citizens who haven't accepted the problem stick to playing in the shadows, secretly killing mindless evil (or specifically always-evil orcs to your point) without advertising it publicly?

Finally, what about the word-building and roleplaying implications? Have you really shrugged it off as it's not "needed to be honest"? So the stuff brought up by @Malmuria and others is of no consequence? Your problem (or the aforementioned "us" problem) is the primary problem, and thus is the only problem you in all honesty care to discuss, and the other side's problem is too irrelevant for you?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, and I don't mean to be obtuse. I'm just try to stir up some more introspection, for my clarity, so that my mental map of your perspective is more accurate and more in-tune with what you were intending when you chose to reply to me saying you're not sure a creative solution is needed.
 
Last edited:

Sorry for the fisking here, but, you've asked a lot of questions and it is probably best to take each one in turn.

OK you're not sure, but do you want to think about it further?

None of this is intended as a criticism or interrogation, but I'm just trying to clarify and maybe encourage you to introspect what your stated end goal is, if that makes sense?
Not really, no. Everything that needs to be said, AFAIC, has been said. People feel that they are being excluded from the hobby, and, looking at the history of the hobby, they are correct. Representation matters. So, anything that increases representation is good. Endless navel gazing and endlessly trying to relitigate the issues isn't productive.

To clarify your pronouns, who do you mean re: "don't do this anymore"? Me? WoTC? Tournament play? DMs and players playing a private game at home? I'm presuming WoTc and conventions are already moving in this direction, no? If so, does that mean your "don't this anymore" refer to the imagined fictions of all citizens of the world who play D&D? Or maybe just all Enworlders, but Redditors can do what they want?
Why would I only include Enworlders? That's a bit strange. But, as to who, I mean everyone. Granted, I couldn't care less what someone does in their home game, but, again, we're talking about the game as it is published. Which means that in public, at the very least, maybe it's a good idea that we don't keep repeating the same racist crap that has permeated the genre for the past hundred years.

What do you mean by "moves us forward"? Who is "us"? People who are hurt by D&D racist tropes? Would "us" cannot move forward until the problem is wiped off the planet? Or can "us" move forward as long as private citizens who haven't accepted the problem stick to playing in the shadows, secretly killing mindless evil (or specifically always-evil orcs to your point) without advertising it publicly?
I'm getting the feeling that this is leading somewhere, but, I'm not really sure where. Why this insistence on specificity? It's not exactly rocket science here. Don't repeat racist, bigotted themes in the game. How is that hard to understand?

Again, I do not give a rat's petoot about what someone does in their home game. And it sounds an awful lot like you're trying to get me to say that I do.

Finally, what about the word-building and roleplaying implications? Have you really shrugged it off as it's not "needed to be honest"? So the stuff brought up by @Malmuria and others is of no consequence? Your problem (or the aforementioned "us" problem) is the primary problem, and thus is the only problem you in all honesty care to discuss, and the other side's problem is too irrelevant for you?

If your world building requires repeating racist elements, then, well, that's on you. Yup, totally shrugged it off. Do not give a scintilla of a damn about what someone has to do in a home game to keep their always evil orcs. World building implications? What world implications are we talking about here? The implication that the published game will no longer support people who want to include bigotry and racism in the game? Oh noes, whatever shall we do?
I don't want to put words in your mouth, and I don't mean to be obtuse. I'm just try to stir up some more introspection, for my clarity, so that my mental map of your perspective is more accurate and more in-tune with what you were intending when you chose to reply to me saying you're not sure a creative solution is needed.
Again, yes, you got it in one. Don't use racist language in published works to describe fantasy elements. Again, it's not rocket science. If you publish something and then can do a side by side comparison with some racist screed, then don't do that.

And frankly, no, I have zero sympathy anymore for this. I really don't. "Oh, I just want to kill orcs" or "it's all social pressure" or "Oh, well, yes, I know that some people use this to promote racism, but, not me" just doesn't cut it anymore.

A hundred years our favorite genre has buried its head in the sand and pretended that these problems don't exist and then silenced any voices that brought up the issues. No more. There's no excuse anymore. We have to accept that yes, we need to be mindful of hurting other people. And, frankly, to be 100% honest, I'm so sick and tired of the excuses for bigotry that I see get trotted out. No, it's not acceptable to grope and assault women at gaming conventions. No, it's not acceptable to use bigoted language in the books. No, it's not just "fantasy" and not real. All the standard excuses that have been used for decades to excuse behavior that should have been ended long ago.
 

Perhaps it doesn't apply to your group, but I've seen it happen. Very rare in groups I actually play with, but still. There is definitely an impetus toward "non-human? Turn brain off, just enjoy murderating them. Wait, those are humans? Okay so we have to be really sure they deserve this and need to consider other options before we go nuclear."
But what, as per my examples, the NPC motive has been set into motion? I get the, oh we are dungeon delving and going into a cave... oh no, there are kobolds! Attack! But, even in those situations, there is a setup, no? I mean, heck, even modules as old as The Keep on the Borderlands had a setup.
In the games you play, do they have a story? If so, is there already a precedent of things that are inherently evil? If not, does your table still attack blindly? Again, that seems like a misrepresentation.
I mean, we don't even need to look very far to see this in action. The whole trope of "will you kill this orc baby" or related things literally cannot have meaningful force or impact unless orcs are presumed "kill on sight" and humans aren't. You have to have a climate of presuming humans are nuanced and complicated, always needing contextual reasons to kill them, while assuming orcs are simple and uniform, needing no more reason than "they exist."
How many babies do you come across in your campaigns that need slaying? In all my years, at all my tables, with all different groups, I have heard of it happening once. I have yet to see it with my own eyes. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But it seems rare.
Heck, after a fashion, your examples demonstrate a consistent pattern of needing a justification for violence directed at humans: they're slavers (something most humans regard as inherently evil), or kidnappers with intent to perform live human experimentation (committing crimes and mutilating), or they're enemies in wartime (where violence is permitted to protect or advance one's country), or they're pillagers actively rampaging through innocent villages. Those are all "this group has done evil and must be stopped ASAP" or "this group is our active enemy in an official war, and we generally obey the laws of war."
Correct. They all have a motive. Do none of the PCs at your table have a motive or are they just entering random wandering monster fights?
For a lot of folks, the only reason you need for killing an orc is that it's an orc. E.g. I know someone on here has their orcs as essentially biological androids constructed by the forces of darkness to be disposable foot soldiers. They don't reproduce, they don't engage in relationships or have art or trade or any kind of culture, and aren't so much "alive" as "meat puppets animated by darkness." And this was done, IIRC, specifically so that all the pesky moral quandaries would be gone. Orcs, in this paradigm, aren't moral beings in either sense of the term, they aren't sapient or able to make moral decisions because they're almost biological robots of evil, and they hold no moral weight, not even what an animal might possess, because they're totally artificial and only exist to be biological weapons used on whomever the forces of darkness are targeting today.

If humans and orcs were near-universally treated the same way, there would be no need to explain why presumptive KOS status is okay, because presumptive KOS status wouldn't be a thing.
Sounds like you understand this very well. This DM's lore for their table establishes orcs to be just as bad as the cultists or slavers. It just sounds like to me, you don't agree with his lore.

Orcs are "kill on sight" at some tables because - the lore establishes it. Hence - motive.

If it is okay for a party to kill human cultists because they are bad, and the lore of a world says orcs are bad because they too do evil things, then it is okay to kill them.

Again, I challenge you to find a player that kills orcs on sight without a lore motive or a character motive. It doesn't exist. This is why I said the statement is a misrepresentation.

I am going to end with a bit of a rant: This is why I find the non-prepared, seat-of-their-pants DMs to be the primary culprits for these types of misinterpretations. The DM who has put in the time and effort into their world, so as to establish lore and setting and culture would never even have to bother with this sort of criticism.
 


Sorry for the fisking here, but, you've asked a lot of questions and it is probably best to take each one in turn.
Ya, no problem, makes sense. if it's OK with you, let me trim it down to:

1.
You asked
: Why the "the insistence on specificity"?
My answer: So I can understand you better (NOT the problem itself, which I already understood, but you). Your response to my post was confusing to me. I asked for the kind of info that, in my opinion, cuts through all the venting and hits the bone of your specific intentions and goals

2.
You said
: "it sounds an awful lot like you're trying to get me to say that [I care] about what someone does in their home game"
My answer: That's a perfectly reasonable suspicion I guess on this forum, but that's not true with me.

3. (everything else)
I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I now have the information I needed to understand what you were aiming at and what the productive response is on my end. Thanks again!
 
Last edited:

So, I always just wonder is the problem the descriptions of Orcs (or Draconians) or is the problem the use of those descriptions previously, erroneously, of real actual, existing, peoples?

Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Why is there an "or" in that sentence and not an "and"?

The problem is that the descriptions are the same as the ones that described actual, existing peoples.
 

Remove ads

Top