D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Cadence]

There have been very few suggestions other than things like giving fighters an at-will jump spell along with people saying that fighters should be better than world-record setting modern athletes.

I haven't read it in detail, but I think A5E has some powers that require spending exertion. A mechanic like that seems like it could give a lot of ways to think about why fighters don't just do super things every turn, without something more gamey like once per combat or once per day.

 

[Micah Sweet]

what about the solution suggested of making new classes so that the people happy with fighter can play fighter and the people who want more options can play "paragon/marshal/swordsage/warblade/warlord" instead give them half of what casters have, 5 levels of abilities that scale and can be picked. I even suggested making it a d8 HD class (even though a d12 would not break the game)

Sounds like a great 3rd party option. In fact, its probably out there already.

 

[HammerMan]

And why did it have only one product left ? Because it was so unpopular...

bull you have no more ability to guess what it was or wasnt then anyone else/

And there is no such thing as 5.5/6, only anniversary edition, which will be extremely 5e based,

and already changed race and monsters and has surveys out for classes and feats...

so much so that it's anyone's guess as to whether it can even be called 5.5.

again I don't care what you lable it

And we are sick to have to point this out to you. And as for hoping that you will find more 4e in there, it's extremely unlikely,

so i am going to be on here and other boards pushing for it.

you can always make suggestions,

unless you and Oaf don't like them...

but it has nothing to do with the alleged greatness of 4e, and based on weird and biased numbers.

all of the numbers we have are half baked yet you are sure you know the truth...

And essentials were just out, so the intent was NOT for 4e to wind down when these were announced,

the intent was they wanted more... if you have 70 and someone else has 35 and everyone else is spliting the remaining 5 but you think you can claim 80 with the someone else have ing 15 and still the 5 remaining split that doesn't mean 70 is failing or unpopular

but the sales of those (who by the way took me completely by surprise to the extent that I did not even know what it was about) were so catatrophic that 5e was the only way out.

what... what are you talking about... even if you take the best for pathfinder they hit 51% to wotc 44% (again 5% other) and wotc had LOTS of options... they went with 5e and a huge playtest that kept some but not all of 4e... so I don't see where you are coming from

You started this, man, so please stop firing shots and we'll let you go by to the other topic. So, you first.

I didin't start this other basing 4e to try to avoid the discussion did

 

[HammerMan]

Sounds like a great 3rd party option. In fact, its probably out there already.

and I am here trying to drum up support and pointing out that WotC pretty much nailed the problme (even if by accadent) that said class would fix

 

[DND_Reborn]

First, I want to thank most of you for trying to get this back to the main issues.

That being said, as the poll in other thread shows, a decent majority would probably be OK with high level martials being at least somewhat superhuman, so I think that would work as a sensible starting point.

Which I agree with.

OPTION 1: Tiers of Play

Many people suggest tiers of play. In a broader sense I think something like mundane (1-10), heroic (11-20) and epic/superheroic (21-30) could work IF spell progression was expanded to match it; so mundane would be up to 3rd level (maybe?), heroic up to 5th or 6th, and superheroic for spells level 7 or higher.

If you want to start more heroic, perhaps start at a higher level?

OPTION 2: Degrees of Power

Now, I also like the idea of different paths/branches/whatever where you run the full levels 1-20 for each, but have escalating degrees of power:

• Mundane
• Heroic
• Superheroic

This way a Champion Fighter might have more or improved features depending on the power level you want to play.

For example: Second Wind begins at 1d10+fighter level. The Heroic Option might be "You can also spend HD to gain more hit points when you use this feature." The Superheroic Option might be you gain a number of d10 equal to your proficiency bonus (so up to 6d10+fighter level) and can spend HD.

OPTION 3: New Classes

Some have asked for just added a Paragon or Superhero type class, where part of the class is that you have an origin story to make you better, etc.

Personally, I am not for the last option simply because I don't see how it can be balanced against current classes. Now, it can certainly be optional, just like elements of the other options, so it could be a viable solution for the people who want it.

It is NOT just about Power.

The other issue is the pillars of play and how fighters falter compared to others in wizards due to their spell versatility. Several things can be done in this respect:

1. Stop making everyone good at combat. Make it so individuals excel at one pillar.
2. Remove many spells that make the pillars too easily over come.
3. Another option is to move spells to higher levels. So at lower levels mundane solutions work (and still work at higher levels), but at higher levels the party can "move beyond" the problem with spells if speed, etc. is essential.
4. Give others features which mimic what those spells can do.
5. And probably more...

Personally, I like options 1-3 the best, but 4 is probably the easiest to implement.

Thoughts on any of this?

 

[Minigiant]

So, is anyone actually interesting in trying to find a solution for the people who have an issue with the shenanigan disparity or is it time to stop watching the thread?

Call me eternally optimistic, but I am always hoping people will actually want to work to build something to make the game better for everyone, but alas it never seems to happen.

I said it before.

Guaranteed magic items.

At level 10 you get boots of speed or wings of flying.

Or create new classes.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I would be interested, but honestly I think it should be a separate thread. Besides being almost 100 posts long, this thread started as a complaint thread and people are still responding to that. Focusing on solving things probably needs to come from a different angle.

FWIW, my initial suggestion would be 'create different versions of the game, one where fighters stay quite mundane and casters have more constraints, and another where fighters are Thor or Fionn mac Cumhaill and wizards can cast Wish.'

Good point, Willie.

I'll repost to a new thread with what I just posted about options to pursue.

 

[Oofta]

First, I want to thank most of you for trying to get this back to the main issues.


Which I agree with.

OPTION 1: Tiers of Play

Many people suggest tiers of play. In a broader sense I think something like mundane (1-10), heroic (11-20) and epic/superheroic (21-30) could work IF spell progression was expanded to match it; so mundane would be up to 3rd level (maybe?), heroic up to 5th or 6th, and superheroic for spells level 7 or higher.

If you want to start more heroic, perhaps start at a higher level?

OPTION 2: Degrees of Power

Now, I also like the idea of different paths/branches/whatever where you run the full levels 1-20 for each, but have escalating degrees of power:

• Mundane
• Heroic
• Superheroic

This way a Champion Fighter might have more or improved features depending on the power level you want to play.

For example: Second Wind begins at 1d10+fighter level. The Heroic Option might be "You can also spend HD to gain more hit points when you use this feature." The Superheroic Option might be you gain a number of d10 equal to your proficiency bonus (so up to 6d10+fighter level) and can spend HD.

OPTION 3: New Classes

Some have asked for just added a Paragon or Superhero type class, where part of the class is that you have an origin story to make you better, etc.

Personally, I am not for the last option simply because I don't see how it can be balanced against current classes. Now, it can certainly be optional, just like elements of the other options, so it could be a viable solution for the people who want it.

It is NOT just about Power.

The other issue is the pillars of play and how fighters falter compared to others in wizards due to their spell versatility. Several things can be done in this respect:

1. Stop making everyone good at combat. Make it so individuals excel at one pillar.
2. Remove many spells that make the pillars too easily over come.
3. Another option is to move spells to higher levels. So at lower levels mundane solutions work (and still work at higher levels), but at higher levels the party can "move beyond" the problem with spells if speed, etc. is essential.
4. Give others features which mimic what those spells can do.
5. And probably more...

Personally, I like options 1-3 the best, but 4 is probably the easiest to implement.

Thoughts on any of this?

One of the problems is that there's a chicken and the egg problem with D&D. There's not a lot of mod support for high level games because according to WOTC most people don't play past 10th level. We have no idea how many people don't play past 10th level because there aren't high level mods. Add in that there aren't many high level monsters and they are almost always spellcasters which are more difficult to run and the problem compounds. High level spells don't take a lot of thought, they're mostly inherited from previous editions. Abilities for high level fighters is more difficult.

I think a mythic heroes version of the game could be fun, I'm just not sure there's much demand for it. But don't wait until higher tiers to give people mythic abilities, they start out that way. Maybe.

 

[Remathilis]

I wonder: how much of this problem with fighters could be fixed by moving the battlemaster superiority dice to the main fighter chassis and allowing sub classes to interact with it? You could move the champion into the role of "more dice but simple uses" fill the BM slot with a warlordy advanced maneuvers tactics, and allow other classes with magical elements (arcane archer, psi warrior, rune knight) to use Superiority dice to power magical effects while the base fighter maneuvers stay mostly mundane.

 

[Micah Sweet]

First, I want to thank most of you for trying to get this back to the main issues.


Which I agree with.

OPTION 1: Tiers of Play

Many people suggest tiers of play. In a broader sense I think something like mundane (1-10), heroic (11-20) and epic/superheroic (21-30) could work IF spell progression was expanded to match it; so mundane would be up to 3rd level (maybe?), heroic up to 5th or 6th, and superheroic for spells level 7 or higher.

If you want to start more heroic, perhaps start at a higher level?

OPTION 2: Degrees of Power

Now, I also like the idea of different paths/branches/whatever where you run the full levels 1-20 for each, but have escalating degrees of power:

• Mundane
• Heroic
• Superheroic

This way a Champion Fighter might have more or improved features depending on the power level you want to play.

For example: Second Wind begins at 1d10+fighter level. The Heroic Option might be "You can also spend HD to gain more hit points when you use this feature." The Superheroic Option might be you gain a number of d10 equal to your proficiency bonus (so up to 6d10+fighter level) and can spend HD.

OPTION 3: New Classes

Some have asked for just added a Paragon or Superhero type class, where part of the class is that you have an origin story to make you better, etc.

Personally, I am not for the last option simply because I don't see how it can be balanced against current classes. Now, it can certainly be optional, just like elements of the other options, so it could be a viable solution for the people who want it.

It is NOT just about Power.

The other issue is the pillars of play and how fighters falter compared to others in wizards due to their spell versatility. Several things can be done in this respect:

1. Stop making everyone good at combat. Make it so individuals excel at one pillar.
2. Remove many spells that make the pillars too easily over come.
3. Another option is to move spells to higher levels. So at lower levels mundane solutions work (and still work at higher levels), but at higher levels the party can "move beyond" the problem with spells if speed, etc. is essential.
4. Give others features which mimic what those spells can do.
5. And probably more...

Personally, I like options 1-3 the best, but 4 is probably the easiest to implement.

Thoughts on any of this?

There are a lot of great ideas here. I think a fighter type with special abilities sounds pretty cool, for example. I am against removing content, but making it harder to access is probably ok.

However, I stand by my opinion that WotC is extremely unlikely to do any of it. They are literally moving the game in the opposite direction as we speak, to chase the new blood. Why would they do differently when they're making so much this way?

Again, 3rd parties and personal homebrew are the only ways to solve this problem.