D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[HammerMan]

First, I want to thank most of you for trying to get this back to the main issues.


Which I agree with.

OPTION 1: Tiers of Play

OPTION 2: Degrees of Power

OPTION 3: New Classes

of the three the third is the one I think has the best chance of not upsetting people who want fighter to remain simple However I would love if we did all 3.

It is NOT just about Power.

Stop making everyone good at combat. Make it so individuals excel at one pillar.

I doubt it will happen (even with new focus on story combat is still like half the game) but it is a good idea. Take damage spells down a bit and remove damage cantrips could do it... but it is again removing toys from the toy box.

Remove many spells that make the pillars too easily over come.

this is where we are slowly heading. if you notice knock and find traps have slowly been nerfed over the editions

Another option is to move spells to higher levels. So at lower levels mundane solutions work (and still work at higher levels), but at higher levels the party can "move beyond" the problem with spells if speed, etc. is essential.

my problem with this is that a 'fighter/fighter/rogue/rogue' party NEVER moves past those challanges.

Give others features which mimic what those spells can do.

again an option like jump or haste or knock or mage armor that a warrior class could take would be so easy not break anything but still is pushed against. heaven forbidsomeone say frighten, charm, hold person, (yea still teir 1 spells)

 

[HammerMan]

I wonder: how much of this problem with fighters could be fixed by moving the battlemaster superiority dice to the main fighter chassis and allowing sub classes to interact with it?

I think a lot.

You could move the champion into the role of "more dice but simple uses" fill the BM slot with a warlordy advanced maneuvers tactics, and allow other classes with magical elements (arcane archer, psi warrior, rune knight) to use Superiority dice to power magical effects while the base fighter maneuvers stay mostly mundane.

sounds like a great start.

give OPTIONS to take some supernatual uses of the SDice and ones that are higher level (more like 3rd+ level spells)

heck just counter spell... expend a Sup Die and roll X vs Y to use your sword or shield to bat a spell effect away.

 

[RoughCoronet0]

I wonder: how much of this problem with fighters could be fixed by moving the battlemaster superiority dice to the main fighter chassis and allowing sub classes to interact with it? You could move the champion into the role of "more dice but simple uses" fill the BM slot with a warlordy advanced maneuvers tactics, and allow other classes with magical elements (arcane archer, psi warrior, rune knight) to use Superiority dice to power magical effects while the base fighter maneuvers stay mostly mundane.

I definitely think this is the way to go as far as helping give the fighter more options and versatility in their abilities without coming up with anything too different or crazy. Make them like Invocations/Infusions where you get a certain amount to choose from at different levels, with more fantastical and epic options unlockable at higher levels. You could even throw in a few more non combat options in the mix so the fighter can branch out into the other two pillars a bit easier.

This could also allow for more mundane and grounded maneuvers to exist along side more mythical and supernatural maneuvers and allow for the choice.

 

[BrokenTwin]

So wait, given that 3rd party material DOES exist, does anybody know of a 3rd party fighter-equivalent that could fulfill people's requests for a more complex fighter class? Like, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel here, shouldn't we first check to see if someone's already done it? Throw up some examples, then discuss what does or doesn't work about them, and what you'd like to see be folded in to official products.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I've moved the discussion for helping the issue here:

D&D 5E - How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

From the other thread, can we get to work and actually do something to help the issue? So, first, this is how I see it (you might see it differently) and I am more than willing to update/append the issues if I have something wrong. :) ISSUE #1: Fighters fall behind Wizards in features which...

www.enworld.org

Thanks to any who want to contribute and try to help.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So wait, given that 3rd party material DOES exist, does anybody know of a 3rd party fighter-equivalent that could fulfill people's requests for a more complex fighter class? Like, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel here, shouldn't we first check to see if someone's already done it? Throw up some examples, then discuss what does or doesn't work about them, and what you'd like to see be folded in to official products.

I favor Level Up's fighter, but I've been beating that drum for a while.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I wonder: how much of this problem with fighters could be fixed by moving the battlemaster superiority dice to the main fighter chassis and allowing sub classes to interact with it? You could move the champion into the role of "more dice but simple uses" fill the BM slot with a warlordy advanced maneuvers tactics, and allow other classes with magical elements (arcane archer, psi warrior, rune knight) to use Superiority dice to power magical effects while the base fighter maneuvers stay mostly mundane.

I think this is a good start for many people.

 

[Mort]

I wonder: how much of this problem with fighters could be fixed by moving the battlemaster superiority dice to the main fighter chassis and allowing sub classes to interact with it? You could move the champion into the role of "more dice but simple uses" fill the BM slot with a warlordy advanced maneuvers tactics, and allow other classes with magical elements (arcane archer, psi warrior, rune knight) to use Superiority dice to power magical effects while the base fighter maneuvers stay mostly mundane.

That would be an interesting design change.

Many of the problems that come up are due to a weak base class that subclasses have to compensate for (It's the MAIN problem for ex. with rangers and monks) and most failing to do so. Many problems could be fixed by addressing this issue.

That said, by all indications (at least that I've seen and that are publicly available) the "basic" champion fighter is (by a decent margin) the most popular class. By WoTCs math, why would they tamper with something that's working! They might in an unofficial or variant way (such as through their monthlyish web releases) but officially - it's unlikely.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Again, 3rd parties and personal homebrew are the only ways to solve this problem.

Which is fine by me. If enough progress could be made, I would be all for leading a team to create a 3PP solution.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I favor Level Up's fighter, but I've been beating that drum for a while.

I've hesitated at looking into Level Up simply because I know they are doing a lot more than anything I would want, across the board. But, I might look into it someday...