Torchbearer 2nd ed: first impressions

My feelings on TB2 chargen is that PCs are much closer to pregens than to fully defined PCs. Races and classes have pretty narrow stereotyped setups, etc. Every halfling is a burglar, every burglar is a halfling. All halflings are obsessed with food, etc. You can diverge a bit, but in basic outline you really just pick a pregen.

I think it's easy enough to open it up more, though I am not sure if it's really going to add to the game.
 

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kenada

Legend
Supporter
Torchbearer reminds me of basic D&D. It has (almost) race-as-class and a similar equipment list. The grind is very reminiscent of the exploration structure in that game, which also imposes penalties unless you rest regularly.
 

Torchbearer reminds me of basic D&D. It has (almost) race-as-class and a similar equipment list. The grind is very reminiscent of the exploration structure in that game, which also imposes penalties unless you rest regularly.

That is because Moldvay Basic is the exact inspiration for it!

TB1 even more so.

It’s basically Moldvay Basic Mouse Guard-ified!
 

That is because Moldvay Basic is the exact inspiration for it!

TB1 even more so.

It’s basically Moldvay Basic Mouse Guard-ified!
Right, that is definitely the basic inspiration for the character selection. Basic D&D is much more 'free wheeling' though in terms of not really having a 'grind' in nearly as explicit a fashion. Yes, you can run out of torches, for example, and that would be BAD, but taking a minute to accomplish some minor task won't burn a turn, and its quite happy to let the party members multi-task too! So it is a LOT less structured in many respects, plus of course the lack of 'currencies' aside from hit points (I guess you could also call spell slots a currency). At the very least Basic put a lot more leeway in the hands of the DM as far as handling this kind of stuff went. I can remember games where we stuffed our packs with rations and water skins and torches and never even bothered to track what we used, perhaps noting that we burned a few spare silvers of pocket change restocking them. Other games the DM was pretty detailed about tracking supply use, at least at low levels. TBH it ALWAYS became kind of tedious and generally got elided for the most part later on.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
It’s the tyranny of rule zero. If the referee can decide that the rules have no teeth (and I’d argue that’s what allowing multitasking and actions that take less than a turn do), then there’s a high risk that the experience the rules were trying to create will be undermined or broken.

The encumbrance rules stank though. Tracking with an abstraction is fine, but coins is too much granularity. Item-based inventory systems seem popular right now in OSR games. I like the slot-based system in Torchbearer for its visual approach and implemented something similar (but less granular) in my homebrew system.
 

It’s the tyranny of rule zero. If the referee can decide that the rules have no teeth (and I’d argue that’s what allowing multitasking and actions that take less than a turn do), then there’s a high risk that the experience the rules were trying to create will be undermined or broken.

The encumbrance rules stank though. Tracking with an abstraction is fine, but coins is too much granularity. Item-based inventory systems seem popular right now in OSR games. I like the slot-based system in Torchbearer for its visual approach and implemented something similar (but less granular) in my homebrew system.
Yeah, I've debated whether I want to go to something abstract in HoML, like just having the players decide what sort of luggage they have, and then let them try to pull stuff out of it that is relevant to the current situation, a bit like the way BitD works. I started out with just basically the 4e encumbrance rules, but it seems like maybe it isn't really hauling its weight...
 

pemerton

Legend
it's very easy to forget to actually mark the advancement. I feel that's more due to us playing remotely for some reason—this is not the only game stat I've noticed is harder to track playing virtually. I feel that if I were playing in person with paper sheets, it would be pretty easy to keep track of. I could be wrong.
Tracking advancements in Burning Wheel/Torchbearer is also a pain using paper sheets!

I put formulas in the character spreadsheets we're using so that when you enter the right amounts, you get a big bright red indicator to level up the stat. But you still have to remember to update the fields....
I have an Excel sheet for Burning Wheel that similarly keeps track of how many advancements are needed, and when your ability is due for a raise. But the tracking of the advancements is still something that has to be done by the player.

I read the chapter on Invocations once, and decided I want nothing to do with that system. It definitely overflowed my buffer for rules complexity, both in being yet another distinct subsystem, and in being hard to understand on its own. It also looks like no fun to keep track of.
Another complication with Theurges and Shamans is that (a bit like B/X and AD&D clerics) you have access to the full list of invocations all the time.

For that reason, I advised my players in our first session not to create any theurges or shamans, as being too hard to play when you're still learning the system.

I sometimes wonder why I decided to play a magician, if I can't do more magic! But being the knowledge guy has its perks.
Arcanist also lets you cast spells from scrolls (should you find any . . .).

One of the PCs in my (two sessions only so far) campaign is a Dreamwalker, who has a magician-like spread of skills (though Healer rather than Alchemist) but no starting magic: only at 2nd level can a Dreamwalker start building a memory palace. The knowledge skills have proved useful so far. And a Dreamwalker does get to start with a half-moon glaive (= halberd) rather than a dagger!
 

pemerton

Legend
In terms of basic game design aspects, I am of a mind that less is more, and TB2, like its parent BW/MG systems, is definitely more of a 'more is more' kind of design philosophy. Also the books are horribly badly organized
I will also echo that the books are awful. I stopped reading them because I thought I had read enough of the Scholar’s Guide (up through town phase), but it seems like that’s not enough. While the Lore Master’s Manual is purportedly optional, it seems like one is best off to read all the things.
I find the rules overly complicated, poorly written, and poorly organized. It has many distinct yet interlocking subsystems: abilities & skills (with several special ones that have additional rules), instincts, traits/checks, wises, persona points, fate points (because why have just one currency?), conditions, conflicts, arcana, invocations, and more. Every rule seems to have exceptions. No given thing is described completely in any one place, except perhaps spells & invocations: I was routinely suprised to learn new things about something I thought had been covered as I read through the two base books
Spells and invocations are also covered in the conflicts chapter of the SG, though I think it might be overlap rather than new information.

It's interesting to see such unanimity with, or even stronger opinions than, what I said in the OP:
Although the two core books are, in both title and the way they address the reader, meant to emulate a PHB and DMG, I don't think they fully succeed in that respect. There is stuff in the Scholar's Guide that players absolutely need to know, including the core action resolution rules; and personally I would have found it easier with a different approach to the presentation of the material, with less overlap between the two core books and less need (as a reader) to read across multiple books including the Lore Master's Manual to get the full picture of a particular subsystem.

On the "more is more" thing, I remember reading a rpg.net review of a Luke Crane game - Mouse Guard, maybe? - that objected to the two currencies (Fate and Persona). Of course Burning Wheel has Deeds points as well!

The rules are difficult to learn, but once you have a grasp of them, they do work. But they are always front and center, standing in between me and the unfolding drama/action, as we go from the description of the situation, to determining which currencies we have in what amounts and how to combine them to deal mechanically with the situation.
This also seems consistent with the OP:
At a high level of description, Torchbearer can be compared Dungeon World: a modern system dedicated to capturing the feel of classic D&D. At a more detailed level I think there are significant differences; I'll get back to these below.

<snip>

Here's my second serious thought: Play looks incredibly demanding and unforgiving. This is probably the biggest difference, at least on reading, from Dungeon World. There is not the soft-move/hard-move structure of DW; as in Burning Wheel, many checks will probably be failed (due to high obstacles relative to the abilities and augments the players can muster), but unlike BW there is a systematic process for inflicting consequences in the form of debilitating conditions

<snip>

The death spiral, with multiple layers and moving parts in terms of both PC build elements, the basic structure of play, and the passage of both at-the-table and in-game time, seems as severe as anything I've seen in a RPG.

On reading, it's very hard to tell how the flavour and the play will intersect
But I don't think my OP quite called out the place of the mechanics in the scheme of play (in Baker's terminology, how much time one spends dealing with boxes rather than clouds).

Finally, this reminded me of the experience of my own play, limited as that is:
Even though I can point to the items on my character sheet that show Jakob has gotten some nice gear, it feels like he’s no better or possibly worse off than before we started playing.
The PCs in my game, leaving town after their first town phase, are no longer fresh, are still Resources zero (having spent all their loot), and have fewer supplies. In exchange, they have some advancement checkboxes ticked (though no one has actually advanced a skill or ability yet) and they have some Fate and Persona. (But not enough Persona, after two sessions, to earn second level, even if they were to spend it all.)

Also, one has added to his Enemy list, while another has learned that her Friend has been captured by her Enemy.
 

niklinna

satisfied?
One new little thing I noticed playing tonight: We went back to the last area we explored, and had fully mapped out. It costs us no light/food resources to just traipse the whole way up that mountain now. Not terribly "realistic," but very convenient!

Also, my character—having come back from the dead—is already level three and must decide between a second spell slot and a familiar. That's still a really tough choice. Any thoughts? Familiars in Torchbearer 2 do look to be much more capable than in D&D. Of course, you need the 2 spell slots to even be able to cast 2nd-circle spells.... Sheesh.
 
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One new little thing I noticed playing tonight: We went back to the last area we explored, and had fully mapped out. It costs us no light/food resources to just traipse the whole way up that mountain now. Not terribly "realistic," but very convenient!

Also, my character—having come back from the dead—is already level three and must decide between a second spell slot and a familiar. That's still a really tough choice. Any thoughts? Familiars in Torchbearer 2 do look to be much more capable than in D&D. Of course, you need the 2 spell slots to even be able to cast 2nd-circle spells.... Sheesh.

Its really as simple as this. The Familiar will give you more breadth of competency in terms of the groups' capability of positively resolving a variety of conflicts (more Help overall for and more cross-conflict competency). Your extra spell slot will give you a greater chance of having a specific answer to a specific problem and open up your move space a little bit when it comes to obstacle approach. Which of those two do you value more?

Any other thoughts on last night's session? On your PC Paying the Terrible Price and the consequences upon your play and play generally?

@AbdulAlhazred and @kenada , any new thoughts come to mind about last night's session (system, your play, your collective play)?
 

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