A critique and review of the Fighter class

[tetrasodium]

I know, but it doesn't really change the point.

Then explain how all of that extra damage is just discardable under your comment of "They can fight well, but not that much better than the other classes"

Why does it take til level 11 for the Fighter to become better in combat than other classes anyways?

I don't tend to look at the "back 10" levels when making judgment calls about the game, since most of the play I see doesn't get to that point. I would think if Fighters were really meant to be the premier combat class, they'd get that extra attack sooner to really make them stand out.

It's certainly nice that Fighters have short rest resources, so if they get enough rests per diem, they can pull ahead of, say, Paladins, but with their host of powerful defensive abilities and the versatility of spells vs. smite (and better spellcasting than the Eldritch Knight), in all of the games I've seen, pre-10th level Paladins > pre-10th level Fighters.

But I played mostly Adventurer's League and home games where the DM used beefier but fewer encounters, so I know that colors my perceptions of how the classes function.

They are better much sooner for various reasons relating to low monster AC & all the bonuses added to each attack that don't apply to casters. Level 11 is relevant because it's the point where they are so much better it begins overloading the system & you wind up with combat where LWQF rather than LFQW is the norm without increasingly contrived whiteroom scenarios. Ironically that inversion is largely caused because so many of the things 5e did to put a damper on the worst of 3.x's LFQW problems combine on each end of the scale to simply reverse the problem rather than limit it.

 

[Minigiant]

Other than rogues and bards, no other class gets a particular benefit for OOC activities outside of limited resources. If you cherry pick classes and the spells they choose and ignore some of the penalties for things like charm person and assume they can don't have to worry about resource management and never split the party and ignore feats and ignore magic items and assume that the DM relies heavily on dice for OOC activities and assume that the player of the fighter feels like D&D is a competition and for some bizarre reason can only contribute to the game based on their proficiency bonus there isn't a lot of room for the fighter to be better at certain things. Doesn't mean he can't still be decent at a few OOC things just in case the specialist isn't there, but I guess we have to ignore that as well

A sorcerer or warlock with max Charisma and a proficiency in 1-2 social skills is standard build. Same with a paladin but with 14+ Charisma. And all the other casters can afford 14+ Charisma and a social skill. All of these outshine the noble fighter without trying nor being the specialist (bard).

Thats all we are saying. Since the invention of NWP and skills, the fighter has given the standard nontalented level of skill for most outside of combat mechanical power. This is because the fighter tends to favor ability scores that have limited outside of combat application OR are bypassed by standard magic OR is redundant with a skill class that is has better aptitude. So the fighter player often has to wait and choose what the rest of the party doesn't automatically get above normal aptitude in.

 

[Oofta]

This ignores that every other class in Tier 1 has social and/or exploration abilities

Such as? I took a gander at wizard spells up to 4th. They have friends and charm person, but the target knows they were affected after the spell wears off. Charm person only makes someone a friendly acquaintance and gives the caster advantage on social checks, it's fairly limited. Better hope you never have to interact with them again and that it's not going to get the caster in trouble with the local authorities. There's detect thoughts, but if you read anything other than surface thoughts the target knows it's under the effect of a spell. Tongues lets you talk to others if you don't know their language, but in all my years of playing I don't recall seeing it used.

Comprehend languages does come up now and then as do things like clairvoyance and arcane eye. Handy in the right situation but hardly useful on a regular basis. Another category I don't remember the last time I saw it used other than comprehend languages because it can be cast as a ritual. Almost forgot locate creature. It's helpful but another niche spell I rarely see it used unless you can memorize spells specifically to achieve some goal.

Add in that a wizard needs intelligence, but may also want to put better scores into dexterity and constitution if they want to live.

So what, exactly do wizards get that fighters don't that makes wizards far and above better than fighters in social/exploration? Familiars obviously can come in handy depending on DM and campaign, but in my experience they're either limited because it's boring to have familiars do all the scouting or they get killed off on a regular basis.

 

[Oofta]

A sorcerer or warlock with max Charisma and a proficiency in 1-2 social skills is standard build. Same with a paladin but with 14+ Charisma. And all the other casters can afford 14+ Charisma and a social skill. All of these outshine the noble fighter without trying nor being the specialist (bard).

Thats all we are saying. Since the invention of NWP and skills, the fighter has given the standard nontalented level of skill for most outside of combat mechanical power. This is because the fighter tends to favor ability scores that have limited outside of combat application OR are bypassed by standard magic OR is redundant with a skill class that is has better aptitude. So the fighter player often has to wait and choose what the rest of the party doesn't automatically get above normal aptitude in.

A fighter can't invest in charisma the same amount as a paladin?

The fighter is a two-hit wonder. Strength or dex and con. After that, they can emphasize something else if they want. Also, see my post above.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Then explain how all of that extra damage is just discardable under your comment of "They can fight well, but not that much better than the other classes"

Because other classes have their own abilities to make up for it, and it wasn't even a comment about comparing class effectiveness, just how they'd be perceived in the game's world and that the extra damage they may deal isn't enough to make up for their lack of mechanics out of combat (in terms of impressing NPCs, that is).

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think the barbarian typically gets a pass is because the issue isn't really about the pillars. The pillars are just a bundle of easy-to-apply buzzwords that happen to coincide with the fighter problem. The real issue is a lack of interesting things to do. The Non-Battlemaster can't do much besides hit things while the Barbar--despite not having much in the way of other pillar interaction--still gets interesting things to do even if they're all in combat.

You can still RP in combat after all, but there's sonly so much you can do with 'I insert the pointy stick into the bad thing'.

I think a big part of it is that people who sign up for the barbarian expect they are signing up for a big beefy "Hulk Smash" type character. While, especially with the presence of the barbarian, the fighter is expected to master the art of combat beyond smashing. Which includes things like leadership, reading the terrain, noticing how people move, and outthinking them and deconstructing their combat style as well as outhitting them.

 

[theCourier]

OK fine.

But otherwise my point stands re this thread, and I've raised this topic with you personally via PM (and never got a response).

This exact thread (or copies of it, in various forms) about 'Martials suck and Casters rock' seems to crop up on a weekly basis (the thread I PMd you about existed on three separate variants on the main board that day) with the same small group of people, complaining about the same thing, they've been complaining about, for 7 years now.

I could find you hundreds of versions of this exact same thread on this forum, largely dominated by the same negative voices.

It's tiring, and it makes a forum designed to encourage discussion, do the exact opposite.

Like; I dont go on the Ultralight Hiking forum of Reddit to see some dude post a new thread every other day, bagging out the same aspects of UL hiking, with the same dudes repeating the same stuff in that thread over and over and over again, and refusing to even look at different POVs.

Can you please, create a stickied thread or something of that note, or moderate this topic in some manner (other than going after the guys getting frustrated by the same thread over and over and over again) to stop the same repeated discussion, bagging out the game we all come to this site and this forum to discuss?

Im not being critical of you here, just expressing frustration with the above phenomena, and nothing ever seeming to get done about it. It's nearly as bad as the 'Sorcerer King' spamming from a while back.

Thanks.

Holy crap, you all got the Sorcerer King dude as well? I thought that was just Giant in the Playground.

 

[tetrasodium]

Because other classes have their own abilities to make up for it, and it wasn't even a comment about comparing class effectiveness, just how they'd be perceived in the game's world and that the extra damage they may deal isn't enough to make up for their lack of mechanics out of combat (in terms of impressing NPCs, that is).

So are you asking me to explain it for you despite my saying that fighters very much are "that" much better without contrived whiterooms? Or are you are not capable of explaining how all of that extra damage is just discardable under your comment of "They can fight well, but not that much better than the other classes"?

 

[bedir than]

Such as? I took a gander at wizard spells up to 4th. They have friends and charm person, but the target knows they were affected after the spell wears off. Charm person only makes someone a friendly acquaintance and gives the caster advantage on social checks, it's fairly limited. Better hope you never have to interact with them again and that it's not going to get the caster in trouble with the local authorities. There's detect thoughts, but if you read anything other than surface thoughts the target knows it's under the effect of a spell. Tongues lets you talk to others if you don't know their language, but in all my years of playing I don't recall seeing it used.

Comprehend languages does come up now and then as do things like clairvoyance and arcane eye. Handy in the right situation but hardly useful on a regular basis. Another category I don't remember the last time I saw it used other than comprehend languages because it can be cast as a ritual. Almost forgot locate creature. It's helpful but another niche spell I rarely see it used unless you can memorize spells specifically to achieve some goal.

Add in that a wizard needs intelligence, but may also want to put better scores into dexterity and constitution if they want to live.

So what, exactly do wizards get that fighters don't that makes wizards far and above better than fighters in social/exploration? Familiars obviously can come in handy depending on DM and campaign, but in my experience they're either limited because it's boring to have familiars do all the scouting or they get killed off on a regular basis.

You missed Fly and every illusion as well. But, yes, you are correct – spellcasters have a lot that they can do besides kill people

 

[Zubatcarteira]

So are you asking me to explain it for you despite my saying that fighters very much are "that" much better without contrived whiterooms? Or are you are not capable of explaining how all of that extra damage is just discardable under your comment of "They can fight well, but not that much better than the other classes"?

I don't consider them "that" much better, especially since the full sentence was "They can fight well, but not that much better than the other classes to warrant much adoration", that last part that you leaving out was my point, that they aren't superior enough there to stand out in-universe to the NPCs and make up for the non-combat stuff.

If you just wanna argue about who can deal more damage, you don't need to respond since I don't really care and that's not the point of my comment.