D&D General "I make a perception check."

[Charlaquin]

No, and I think this is the biggest problem with the perception debate we've been having.

Perception is "what do I see, what do I smell, what do I hear"

Investigation is "now I'm going to start poking and moving things and interacting with the environment"

These are fundamentally different.
Huh? Where did you get that interpretation from? Sure, you can use it for that, that's basically how it works for illusions, but an Investigation check is often... investigating a scene in detail, not just "can I use the clues to come to a conclusion"

Making deductions based on clues is literally what the player’s handbook says the Investigation skill is for.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

@Reynard and @Umbran.

If people are using investigation as a skill for deducing information from a given scenario then, yup, I agree. Treat it separately to perception. (Minor nitpick, but maybe rename investigation to deduction or such.)

But some people* do not use investigation that way, or exclusively that way. Some make the distinction of perception being passive and investigation being active, as @Chaosmancer implies in their post #439 above. A distinction that, IIRC, was made in 3rd ed. where the rules were first introduced to DnD.

I personally do not consider such a distinction all that distinct.


* A lot of people in my personal experience, for whatever that's worth.

 

[Charlaquin]

@Reynard and @Umbran.

If people are using investigation as a skill for deducing information from a given scenario then, yup, I agree. Treat it separately to perception. (Minor nitpick, but maybe rename investigation to deduction or such.)

But some people* do not use investigation that way, or exclusively that way. Some make the distinction of perception being passive and investigation being active, as @Chaosmancer implies in their post #439 above. A distinction that, IIRC, was made in 3rd ed. where the rules were first introduced to DnD.

I personally do not consider such a distinction all that distinct.


* A lot of people in my personal experience, for whatever that's worth.

Ask 5 DMs how they run perception vs investigation and you’ll get 6 different answers. This is one of many reasons I just ask for ability checks nowadays and let the players determine if they think one of their proficiencies is applicable.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I'm torn. On the one hand, I agree that I don't like it when players think too much in game-terms, and not enough in world-terms. On the other hand, I'm not very judgemental and I've played with enough people to know that not everyone holds the same views on what makes for a good game.

I'd be more generous to the player than the OP, but I came to that view after a long journey.

 

[Maxperson]

I get what they were going for but I don't feel like they stuck the landing. Perception is seeing the bloody knife and the old ledger and the letters from an angry business associate, while investigation is putting them all together to figure out who the next victim is. But that's super narrow, so they expanded it.

it is extra weird for rogues, because they have three separate "I deal with the trap" skills and it ultimately just slows down play.

I use investigation for finding secret doors, rifling through a room and tracking down the library in a city. It plays a much larger role in my game. Perception is just used for the senses perceiving things. Noticing something unusual in a room. Hearing an invisible creature. And so on. That makes the two skills roughly equal.

Oddly enough I use passive perception for simply noticing a secret door while walking down the corridor, but investigation if a PC actively investigates the wall for one.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So? This is exactly what I'm talking about. I've also seen that a lot.

So help them to become comfortable with it.

IF they want to, sure, but you shouldn't feel it is your duty or right to make them do something they don't want to. That's all I'm saying.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Perception for finding living creatures that took the Hide action. Investigation for finding inanimate objects that have been covered over from view. Been doing this since the beginning of the 5E game.

This lets Rogues go with higher INT rather than WIS, in order to look for and find traps and secret doors, plus be better at searching rooms. It also makes better sense why the three WIS casters (Cleric, Druid, and Ranger) have a spell on their lists called 'Find Traps', because they usually won't have the higher INT like Rogues and Wizards would to find them naturally.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

The same happened to me with a lot of other skills. Intimidation is notorious at our table.

Player: I intimidate the guy!
DM: How?
Player: With my intimidation skill!
DM: The NPC laughs at you as you just stand there doing nothing. (Also, it's an auto fail).
... (short moment of silence)
Player: Alright, I will walk up to the [NPC] and look mean and growl.
DM: There you go. Good. Roll an intimidation check.

 

[Reynard]

Perception for finding living creatures that took the Hide action. Investigation for finding inanimate objects that have been covered over from view. Been doing this since the beginning of the 5E game.

This lets Rogues go with higher INT rather than WIS, in order to look for and find traps and secret doors, plus be better at searching rooms. It also makes better sense why the three WIS casters (Cleric, Druid, and Ranger) have a spell on their lists called 'Find Traps', because they usually won't have the higher INT like Rogues and Wizards would to find them naturally.

This is perfectly reasonable, but they should still tell you what they are doing and wait to be told they need to roll a particular check.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think part of the issue with what people are seeing is this:

Player: "I make a perception check."

vs.

Player: "(Insert name of character) will look around for anything unusual."

but we don't see... (at least IME)

Player: "(Insert name of character) makes a perception check."

It is the player using 1st person "I", which can be confusing to many players. They might think "I" in the sense of their character, but have difficulty separating what the character does from the mechanics the they do.

Just a thought.