D&D 5E When lore and PC options collide…

[Fifth Element]

You have to examine why you feel you have to judge people for their decisions

Extremely unfair characterization. They never said anything about "having" to judge them - just that they "reserve the right" to do so, meaning they will do it when it is warranted.
You put words in their mouth here, and you should not do that.

 

[Maxperson]

can you not see your own posts?

Yep. I was very clearly talking about self-centered jerks, which you say your examples aren't. Therefore, it didn't apply to you or anyone else here(as they have also not acted that way). Here is a fact for you. There are self-centered jerks out there who desire to cause conflict and will show up with a banned character type even after agreeing not to. Those people are douches. Not the ones you describe here.

I called nobody here a name.

 

[Fifth Element]

That sounds awfully judgmental, which might be appropriate for certain types of people who are engaged in denying people their basic humanity in society at large...

False equivalence. You're interpreting the word choice in a very narrow manner, and pretending that "judge" doesn't have a range of meanings, like most words in our language. You've interpreted it in the worst possible way. Forum discussions go much better if you instead read it in the most charitable way instead. Please consider doing that in future.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

clearly talking about self-centered jerks, which you say your examples aren't. \

but you are useing it as your counter example... and as such saying that the people who are argueing against you are

self-centered jerks,

the player being a douche

so either you admit this is NOT the argument and that you are tilting at windmills or you can admit you are trying to call us these things and 'play the system' "Oh I said someone on your side I didn't say you"

 

[Maxperson]

but you are useing it as your counter example... and as such saying that the people who are argueing against you are

Noooo, I'm using it to show that a statement that the DM should work with the players is not a truism. Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.

 

[Aldarc]

I think it’s pretty clear deciding on the character you’re going to play before there’s even a game to play is a mistake. It’s the player assuming all options are on the table. That might be the case, but it might not. Then the player gets mad about some options being restricted. It’s the definition of a self-inflicted wound.

The two solutions to this are: 1) referees never restrict player options, which is a non-starter for a lot of games, referees, and settings, or; 2) players never decide on a character before there’s a game to play them in.

Note that second one is not “do not make characters” nor is it “do not fiddle with character creation” nor is it “do not daydream about characters.” It is do not decide on a character before there’s a game to play them in.” Just like you wouldn’t bring a social-focused fast-talker to a dungeon crawl or a noble with lots of city connections to a hex crawl, don’t decide on a character before you know what game they’ll be in.

I try to make these things clear when making the Game Pitch and again in Session 0.

I'm not really a fan of players coming to the table with a pre-made character in mind. I try dissuading players of that, usually by telling them that we will create characters as a group at the table and not at home. This gives players a chance to bounce ideas off each other. It helps prevent player characters from arriving wearing the same outfit so to speak. This also, IME, tends to kill the trend of five players with lonewolf characters.

 

[Fifth Element]

If your lore isn't good enough to convince the players to buy into any associated restrictions, maybe your lore isn't as interesting as you think it is. Maybe consider that their ideas might even be better than yours.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I find it interesting that the "constraint fosters creativity" argument gets mentioned in these discussions. Not because I don't think there's truth to it, but because it's usually mentioned in conjunction with external constraint, right? Such as a GM telling players "these races are off the table"; that's external to the players, and constrains their choices.

Does it do anything for their creativity? It may. Sometimes a player may need to scrap one idea in favor of another, or to ditch a favorite go-to in order to come up with something new.

But it also may not. Maybe they have a really compelling idea for a tiefling... and then they realize no tieflings allowed, and so they scrap it and make a new character out of necessity rather than excitement, which turns out to be bland next to the old one.

I'd say that the idea of constraint fostering creativity doesn't really have a place in the discussion. Or, at least, not from the player perspective.

But what about GM creativity and constraint? Never really comes into play, does it? All these creative GMs and their creative worlds just disregarding any kind of constraint that player choice might place on them. No constraint on their decisions at all.

"But I don't like Tieflings" is about the least creative reason to exclude them. If that's all you got, then stop talking about creativity. That's as dull and basic a reason to exclude stuff. This is more a by-product of the common conception with D&D that it's "the DM's world" rather than the group's world. Don't like Tieflings? Find a way to make them work in your world. Surely this constraint would make one a more creative GM, no?

If constraint fosters creativity, then find a creative way to take the player idea and make it work. Or else stop pushing the idea that constraint fostering creativity matters to this topic.

 

[Xamnam]

Absolutely something that cuts both ways. I just think the conversation is generally going to start unbalanced because typically DMs are coming to players with an idea that they've already spent at least some time on, so they're setting the table. A group comes up with all their PCs first, and then asks the DM to craft a world and story to fit them, that would definitely be an interesting creative constraint!

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's like playing with a 3e Paladin: "I have made a character choice, so now your character choices are limited. This is somehow okay."