D&D 5E When lore and PC options collide…

Which is more important?

  • Lore

  • PC options


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I am running the game and I like the lore, so tough.
A clear sign of a problem DM.
No, it’s a clear sign of a problem player.
No. It's a clear sign of a problem in the relationship between the player and the DM.

In the example earlier in this thread it was explicitly a response to a problem DM and we know this because the very same players who used malicious compliance with a problem DM were fine with one who was more relaxed.
So in your view players completely lack agency and whatever they do is the result of the DM. That’s certainly…interesting.
In my view when the DM says things like "I am running the game and I like the lore, so tough." then that DM is explicitly stamping on player agency. There are no players without agency unless the DM has taken it away by saying things like "so tough" whenever they offer a suggestion.
So the player cannot possible be creative while playing their characters unless they get to be creative in co-designing the world they play those characters in? That’s certainly a hot take.
Let me be clear. There are precisely zero players who ""cannot possible be creative while playing their characters". None. Nada. If you are physically capable of playing a character then you are capable of some creativity while playing that character. There are however players who will be more creative and players who will be less creative. And players who need more encouragement to be creative and players who will more easily be discouraged from being creative.

If you have players to help co-design the setting then you are encouraging their creativity. And if you greedily hog the design of the setting to yourself then you are discouraging their creativity. Also if you think they can't be creative you discourage their creativity.

The reason I am arguing so hard against the DMing practices you advocate is because they are exactly the DMing practices I expect to discourage creativity and engagement from players. And from your description of your group this is exactly what has happened. And the problem is only with the players in that they've learned from your DMing practices.
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Because the DM is their play thing.
Really?

Talk about completely unnecessary, inflammatory hyperbole.

Poor, poor beleaguered DMs. They only have absolute power--as several posters here are so eager to point out. Whatever will they do? How will they be protected from the nasty, cruel players who do things like "asking to play things they like" and "not being happy about capricious, arbitrary decisions"?!
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
The DM isn't special in this aspect.
Wrong, the DM is very special in this aspect.

The DM is the one who does all the work, and when lore is a factor, that is a lot of it, and runs the game for all the players. Players agree to play in the DM's game, and agree to whatever conditions the DM sets. If a player doesn't like it, find another DM.

Your example of one player vs another is a "player" level thing, the DM is more than a player, they are the Dungeon Master.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Gotcha. I don't think they're as separate as you want to make them. Style and theme pretty lore dependent.
They can be as separate or intertwined as the author/builder/DM wants.
Especially when it comes to race and class
I can write the same themed setting with different lores. That's what AU and "What if" fanfictions are all about.

That is my point.

Lore is 100% designed by the author/builder/DM.

If something doesn't fit the lore, that is the author/builder/DM's choice. They made the lore.

Many attempt to hide behind lore to obfuscate their preferences. There's nothing wrong with a DM banning or restricting stuff based on preferences. But people have to own it.

If you want a purist Greek theme game and want to use the myths as lore, that is fine. If you want to make a Swashbuckling adventure and want to remove the flying and earth races, that's okay. If you want to make a Middle Earth clone, say so openly so players can make their favorite LOTR clone PC. And if you want to make a standard old school classic D&D world with all the changed, go and do it.
 

Right, and if they were simply writing fiction, then I’d say nothing more needs to be said about it. But since they’re not writing fiction, but instead establishing fictional details for players to interact with, I’d say it’s not really enough.

If there’s a compelling reason for some race or class to be excluded, that’s one thing. But just “I don’t like dragonborn so they don’t exist” is another.
What is "a compelling reason" and to whom it needs to be compelling?

And when I design worlds, I feel it is far more sensible to start from the opposite direction: only include the things that there are compelling reason to include. I find the whole idea that settings must include everything as default utterly bizarre, and it seems to mostly be some sort of weird D&D (and D&D-derivative) related phenomenon. (Though thankfully not one I've encountered in the real life.)
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Wrong, the DM is very special in this aspect.

The DM is the one who does all the work,
Then stop doing all the work. It really is that simple.

and when lore is a factor, that is a lot of it,
It really isn't that much.

Players agree to play in the DM's game, and agree to whatever conditions the DM sets. If a player doesn't like it, find another DM.
Surely not whatever conditions the DM sets? I find it unlikely that even the most stridently hyper-restrictive DM thinks that literally anything the DM might think to demand is perfectly acceptable.

Your example of one player vs another is a "player" level thing, the DM is more than a player, they are the Dungeon Master.
Sure. That doesn't explain--to say nothing about justifying--the levels of petulance or pettiness explicitly described in this thread.

People get mad at me when I talk about how it seems like a significant subset of DMs get their jollies banning stuff just so other people can't have it. And then we get threads like this one that remind me why I think that.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
For me, strong preferences of my friends and gaming acquaintances are compelling reasons for decision-making, with or without explanation.
So this is a two-way street then, yes? Without players, there is no game. Without DM, there is no game. Surely there must be some amount of "players should expect to be able to enjoy the game" involved here? Surely some amount of, "I thought we were playing D&D, a game that has dragonborn printed right here in this doorstopper you had us read before we were allowed to get started"?
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
What is "a compelling reason" and to whom it needs to be compelling?
To me the reason doesn't have to be compelling.

"I don;t like X" is reason enough. Not a great reason but a valid one.

But "I don't like X" isn't as strong as an actual lore reason. Or a mechanical reason. Or a equality reason. Or a gameplay reason.

And when I design worlds, I feel it is far more sensible to start from the opposite direct: only include the things that there are compelling reason to include. I find the whole idea that settings must include everything as default utterly bizarre, and it seems to mostly be some sort of weird D&D (and D&D-derivative) related phenomenon. (Though thankfully not one I've encountered in the real life.)
Oh there is a hot take I hint at sometime here of D&D setting building that if stated many are not ready for.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
But that's the whole crux of the argument. That compromise doesn't really mean compromise, it seems to always mean "do whatever the player wants". Is the DM less important than an individual player? What do the rest of the players desire?

Compromise is the first step, of course. It’s what I’d attempt and what I’d expect and hope for by others. I don’t know if everyone agrees, based on many of the responses, but I’ve been approaching this conversation with that as a given.

The way @overgeeked set the poll up, with only two options, implies only one can be chosen, so to me, the question is about what to do when some compromise can’t be reached.

Personally, I’d give the player what they want. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t really matter and as I’ve said many times now, real people are more important to me than fake ones.

Also, if it’s a case where I’ve decided 99% of the setting, I’m probably gonna be okay if this one time it turns out to be only 98%.

The DM puts far more work and effort into running the campaign than anyone else. If you don't have a DM you don't have a game, meanwhile players come and go for various reasons.

I suppose we should examine that a bit… why does the DM put in all that work?

Maybe the answer to that question will reveal something.

I have a player who, sadly, will have his last game with us in a couple of weeks because they're moving to Kentucky. Should I have let him play something I didn't care for that didn't fit with the lore of my world because he asked me to?

Sure, why not?

If I created a new world with every campaign I ran and if campaigns only lasted for a few months, I'd probably be more flexible. But I've run the same campaign world for decades. It has history and deep lore, most of it created or influenced by what PCs did in previous campaigns. I run campaigns from 1-20 so it can take years to finish since generally we can only do monthly games.

So on this, I’m going to propose a hypothetical question. I’m assuming that your approach works fine and your players have been cool with it and there’s no issues. So what I’m about to ask is not about any specific game.

Maybe each DM has to consider that the only person who really cares about the lore of their homebrew world is them? Maybe if an orc showed up and there had never been such a creatire before, the DM is anxious because how do you reconcile that? Why is this just coming up now? What impacts will it have? All that stuff… maybe the players don’t remotely care.

As you say, they’re likely not as invested in it. They haven’t put in the hours and the effort! So of course they’re not going to care as much.

So this hypothetical DM… or all of us, really… should consider these tough questions and then maybe revisit the one I asked above… why does the DM put in all that effort?

As DM I make the final call. Just like every other D&D game I've ever played with other people's campaigns. If that means I can't play a tabaxi in their campaign, so be it. I'll play something else, the DM has far more invested than me so I owe them.

I used to think more along these lines, but these days, nope… people show up for a game and that’s all of our time. If I choose to spend hours and hours in between sessions, that’s my choice. It certainly isn't necessary to run a game. No one owes me for that, beyond basic respect.

I was essentially the forever GM for nearly 20 years and about three years ago, I said I wanted to just play for a while. Other people have stepped in and have been DMing since, and I’ve been regularly running other games (with a short five session return to D&D).

Just like there are other players, there are other DMs, and other games. I don’t really consider anyone at the table more important than any other.
 

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