What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Ruin Explorer]

Okay, and I think that completely misses the point of what the article is going for and that you are desperately trying to damn hard, then.

I'm definitely not missing the point, and again, it really looks like you're trying to use an argument you don't really believe in - also your last point doesn't even make sense.

Not everything is about chainmail bikinis, but that's what a lot of us are referring to. Not everyone is just about taking anything remotely sexy out of RPGs and it's a complete strawman to think as such. There's a difference between sexiness and cheesecake and you can be plenty sexy without having to resort to cheesecake.

Sorry mate, I've been around too long to fall for this one.

Loads of people call anything remotely attractive "cheesecake", so there's no meaningful difference because the term is misused so extremely widely. Some of the images you list below have been called "cheesecake", for god's sake.

I think Paizo still has plenty of stuff that would be considered sexy, I just think it's less, er, blunt force as it used to be. Things aren't exactly old school Seoni anymore. Just from Mwangi Expanse...

Uh-huh, and like I said, they're less bad, but I'm still concerned they'll head that way, and apart from the first image they definitely actively trying to avoid being hot - which isn't necessarily a big problem, unless you do it all the time. I also note they still have a bit of a sexism issue - I mean you found a handsome guy at least, but he's wearing a goddamn poncho, one of the least attractive garments ever devised - only Clint has ever really successfully werked it.

I think yes and no? I think that the fans are way more important in generating content at a certain level and I don't really think that the industry leaders are expected to do this in the same way movies used to have this. More than that, I don't think the fans feel quite as stifled by it and that certainly shows in a lot of fan works and in how a lot of newer players play (at least, from what I've seen). I just don't think that Wizard being dull in their art matters as much because, at the end of the day, people put in the sexiness one way or another. It not happening on the big screen is different for a variety of reasons, not the least of which the fans don't really have the same sort of power to influence the industry.

I just don't even slightly agree that fans doing their own art makes up for WotC going full Funko Pop-wards. And I fear Paizo and others following WotC.

lol I don't think that's in the movie. I think that's a production still? Because I'm watching the opening scene and I can't find it. Instead, you get shots like this.

It's not on streaming atm, so I can't check, but you're looking too early - he has pants on, so it would need to be after he gets pants.

Either way he's an extremely beautiful guy, in his figure, his face, and the way he moves (including his face). He is definitely one of the sexiest people on the block.

I agree re: how the camera treats him, but that's not as totally desexualized as you seem to think. You're drawing that puritan on/off line re: sexuality. There's no line.

I think those parts make the film better and it's why I like T1 more than T2. But again, the film and plot would function without them. That was the point.

100% disagree and you're proving my point re: the weird puritan line people - especially Americans - like to draw. Follow the link to the book I listed - the entire thesis there is absolutely that the movie WOULD NOT work without that, not as a genuinely great movie. It'd just be a dumb mediocre story. And I agree with that thesis.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Loads of people call anything remotely attractive "cheesecake", so there's no meaningful difference because the term is misused so extremely widely. Some of the images you list below have been called "cheesecake", for god's sake.

I don't think anyone here is making completely all or nothing arguments like that, and that you're trying to make mine into comes off as weak.

And when I think cheesecake, I think Mortal Kombat 9. These are closer to... Mortal Kombat 11, which has sexiness but isn't skeevy about it. You can look those up if you like, but I think you'll get the gist pretty quick.

Uh-huh, and like I said, they're less bad, but I'm still concerned they'll head that way, and apart from the first image they definitely actively trying to avoid being hot - which isn't necessarily a big problem, unless you do it all the time. I also note they still have a bit of a sexism issue - I mean you found a handsome guy at least, but he's wearing a goddamn poncho, one of the least attractive garments ever devised - only Clint has ever really successfully werked it.

I didn't include everyone. I was mostly looking for women, to be honest, since I think that's more being debated. I also didn't want to turn the debate into the sexiness of dwarves.

Also, you wrong about ponchos, but that's okay.

I just don't even slightly agree that fans doing their own art makes up for WotC going full Funko Pop-wards. And I fear Paizo and others following WotC.

I don't? Like, I just don't see the same sort of thing happening. What I see is less of bra-less Seoni and more just general sexiness without being completely skeevy about it.

It's not on streaming atm, so I can't check, but you're looking too early - he has pants on, so it would need to be after he gets pants.

You can literally just look up the scene online, dude. It's on YouTube. The scene also never has lighting like that, so I'd wager it's a production still.

Either way he's an extremely beautiful guy, in his figure, his face, and the way he moves (including his face). He is definitely one of the sexiest people on the block.

I agree re: how the camera treats him, but that's not as totally desexualized as you seem to think. You're drawing that puritan on/off line re: sexuality. There's no line.

I'm not trying to completely desexualize him as much as point out that what makes the whole thing sexy is not how they look at his body, but how they frame the passion of their relationship. Linda Hamilton is a beautiful woman but is wrestling with some insane 80's hair in that movie and that doesn't hurt things at all.

100% disagree and you're proving my point re: the weird puritan line people - especially Americans - like to draw. Follow the link to the book I listed - the entire thesis there is absolutely that the movie WOULD NOT work without that, not as a genuinely great movie. It'd just be a dumb mediocre story. And I agree with that thesis.

What the heck are you even talking about? The movie would still function without it, I didn't say it'd be great or even good. What makes it great is that's how things wrap around. You're so busy trying to make this about puritan Americans that you're completely missing the context of what we were talking about with this.

 

[Kaodi]

That was an interesting article.

All of those pictures of "sexy" Mwangi character bring to mind an altogether different issue in RPG art: we might call it "the tokenization of artwork" . There is so much artwork that is made to make for presentable game tokens, which the cartoony look excels at: it is discrete and had high definition but for the most part lacks any action or stakes. It does what it is supposed to extremely well but it also kind of limiting.

Mwangi also might be a good point to introduce another point I have been thinking about: "inclusiveness" is always bounded somehow in the real world. A no-nudity policy is not necessarily actual inclusive of anyone who is from a culture with different expectations than ours; i.e. a lot of peoples depicted in National Geographic over the years (and let me be sure to add the disclaimer that how NG has chosen to present these peoples has often had a skeeviness to it). Certainly most or all of those people may be extremely marginal as potential consumers of RPGs but they exist and maybe they should be at least considered before being dismissed.

Anyway I highly doubt it could ever be financially viable but I kind of wonder what it would be like if any RPG product had multiple versions with art direction geared towards different audiences. I would not include one that is a wholesale throwback to the art of previous editions, but just one that is "for adults" in that it can show a little intimacy and sexuality in candid moments with realistic characters. It could be interesting to compare and contrast two different art directions for the exact same product.

 

[Thourne]

I also note they still have a bit of a sexism issue - I mean you found a handsome guy at least, but he's wearing a goddamn poncho, one of the least attractive garments ever devised - only Clint has ever really successfully werked it.

Why you gotta make Back to the Future era Michael J Fox sad. He did his best!

 

[Bedrockgames]

100% disagree and you're proving my point re: the weird puritan line people - especially Americans - like to draw. Follow the link to the book I listed - the entire thesis there is absolutely that the movie WOULD NOT work without that, not as a genuinely great movie. It'd just be a dumb mediocre story. And I agree with that thesis.

I just watched it again a couple of weeks ago (should have a podcast if a conversation about it up soon), and I Agree strongly with your point here (and sounds like I agree with the book’s thesis). Without that element, the movie loses what makes it do great. It would also be very ungainly if they had here have a son with a different person. The finale completely loses its power if they don’t make love and the the revelation that he is John Conner’s father is absent.

It is such a great movie. I don’t think they needed to do any more after the first one because it is all so self contained. I didn’t fully appreciate when I saw it as a kid in the 80s (on video at a friend’s), but as I got older it really has struck me as an amazing live story, woven seamlessly into a relentless action film about being stalked by a killing machine (giving a movie like that such a vibrant heart, really is impressive the more I reflect on it). And it’s all done so efficiently. It is a very well edited movie

 

[Umbran]

I was thinking more of Temple of Doom.

Sure, but Temple of Doom is built on tropes from the '40s and '50s. And they weren't new then.

 

[Umbran]

Hence, "something to think about" instead of "a serious problem".

You asked, "When does it stop being a problem?" Perhaps what you meant by "it" is a touch vague.

If you included a bunch of racy art in the 2024 PHB, it would be a serious problem for that book. So, in that sense, it hasn't stopped being a serious problem. As soon as it is present, it'd be a problem.

Is the current level of sexism in the art of the current WotC D&D core books a problem? Probably not, insofar as I don't think we see much complaint about the current art. If they kept similar art direction, I don't expect it would be an issue.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I disagree. The arriving naked is less about sexiness and more about vulnerability: Kyle doesn't look or feel sexy in his nakedness, he feels weak and vulnerable. It leads into the police chase where he goes from being vulnerable to being clever and resourceful. It also serves a double purpose as showing off his scars and wounds. Like, his nakedness is not nearly as much a point as Arnold's. And with Arnold, I think you could maybe make a sexiness argument, but I think that scene is more about power: even nude, he is invulnerable. He has nothing to fear, hence him demolishing the punks without anything on him. Also, it's more arguable that it sets up a contrast to his body being of sexy to him being the opposite because he is just explicitly sexless.

I don’t disagree with many of your points here. The nudity is about a lot more than sexy. But these elements aren’t just one thing. Vulnerability is a part of it, establishing that Reese is human, feels pain, etc. but I think Reese is definitely given sex appeal in that scene. He is very fit, athletic, and a handsome guy. What he isn’t in that scene is glamorous. He is literally wearing the pants of a homeless man the entire movie. I am sure if we started a Is Kyle Reese sexy poll, we’d get a lot of affirmative responses

And Arnold is a presentation of power, of man as machine. But I would say the way they show off his physique has a sexual element for sure.

At the end, the sexiness is not a result of showing off bodies, but rather them feeling like emotional human beings with needs. Their romance feels emotional and passionate, and that's a big part of what is missing in modern movies today. When you talk about Marvel romances, they are all quirky relationships that share in jokes and a chaste kiss. There's no emotional drive or passion, there's no magnetism or chemistry creating pull or sparks. It feels like a checkbox and not something real. With Kyle and Sarah, you understand why they emotionally bond and how that turns into love. You can understand their passion, their attraction, all that. And they don't need to be the sexiest people on the block to make it work.

One thing terminator does well is everything us in the movie for a good reason, and all the elements work together to elevate it. So yes, you believe in them as human beings with emotional needs. It works because there is passion and live there. But it is still sexy. It is shot in the sensual style that many 80s movies employ but stands out because it has done a lot of work to make that scene believable. It is still two beautiful people making live though.

But not all movies are trying to achieve what terminator achieves, or being as successful at it when they do. Sex and nudity will be used for different effects in different movies.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I

I'm not trying to completely desexualize him as much as point out that what makes the whole thing sexy is not how they look at his body, but how they frame the passion of their relationship. Linda Hamilton is a beautiful woman but is wrestling with some insane 80's hair in that movie and that doesn't hurt things at all.

Her hair is perfect. It was the 80s. That was what sexy looked like at the time

One thing I think the movie does is show us Reese through her eyes. When he first shows up we don’t know if he is a good guy or bad guy. So I do think the camera looks at him differently over the course of the film to reflect that.

But he is still running around naked, then commando and shirtless, then in a trench coat with a naughty word gun. Again might not be glamorous, he may even be presented as dangerous, but there still is an intentional sexy element to it I would say

 

[Justice and Rule]

I don’t disagree with many of your points here. The nudity is about a lot more than sexy. But these elements aren’t just one thing. Vulnerability is a part of it, establishing that Reese is human, feels pain, etc. but I think Reese is definitely given sex appeal in that scene. He is very fit, athletic, and a handsome guy. What he isn’t in that scene is glamorous. He is literally wearing the pants of a homeless man the entire movie. I am sure if we started a Is Kyle Reese sexy poll, we’d get a lot of affirmative responses

I mean, I never said he wasn't sexy, I just don't think that was largely the intent of the scene. That's just not what it's there for. I'm sure people would say Kyle is sexy, but I think that's carried less by the appearance and more by the performance.

Which isn't to say he isn't sexy; he absolutely is. But there's a difference between being sexy and shooting a scene to be sexy. I don't think Kyle Reese gets many "sexy shots" as much as his sexiness shows through his roughness. That's part of the appeal to the movie, in my opinion.

And again, I think that's why it's such a great contrast to what the article talking about: he's not the clean cut, spotless Chris Evans Captain America. I mean, that dude could be sexy and he is in the first one (or at least, Peggy Carter acknowledges him as such at one point, which is more than most post-Disney Marvel films ever do). But he's not because he's not allowed to be after a point. That whole article is about how it doesn't matter how pretty you are, there's something extra that needs to be there to be actually sexy. Otherwise you're just beautiful people in spandex holding hands and quipping.

And Arnold is a presentation of power, of man as machine. But I would say the way they show off his physique has a sexual element for sure.

Sure, but I think that's also meant to contrast him as a cold machine. He is absolutely, undeniably meant to be sexy in those scenes, and is filmed that way. But obviously his actions contrast with that. It's still there, but I suppose I don't see it as the focus as much as a tool for the scene.

One thing terminator does well is everything us in the movie for a good reason, and all the elements work together to elevate it. So yes, you believe in them as human beings with emotional needs. It works because there is passion and live there. But it is still sexy. It is shot in the sensual style that many 80s movies employ but stands out because it has done a lot of work to make that scene believable. It is still two beautiful people making live though.

But not all movies are trying to achieve what terminator achieves, or being as successful at it when they do. Sex and nudity will be used for different effects in different movies.

And I'm not saying it's not sexy. In fact, I'm literally saying the opposite: it is an incredibly sexy film. I don't think the camera tries to bring that out of the characters, but rather it just relies on the actors to make it work.

Her hair is perfect. It was the 80s. That was what sexy looked like at the time

I just call 'em like I see 'em. Again, don't think she looks bad, but I don't think she's meant to be just absolutely dead sexy. She's meant to be a cute waitress. That's her schtick, her deal at the start.

One thing I think the movie does is show us Reese through her eyes. When he first shows up we don’t know if he is a good guy or bad guy. So I do think the camera looks at him differently over the course of the film to reflect that.

Sure, and I think that kind of works to that idea that she's not meant to be drop-dead gorgeous, even those most of us wish we could look as good as she does. Again, there's an energy in the performance that helps convey that. She's not shot as being "sexy", but she's still allowed to be on her own.

But he is still running around naked, then commando and shirtless, then in a trench coat with a naughty word gun. Again might not be glamorous, he may even be presented as dangerous, but there still is an intentional sexy element to it I would say

I think you could maybe say those scenes become sexier in retrospect, but I just never got that vibe from them. Again, it's not that the film isn't sexy, I just don't see those scenes as such.