D&D General How much control do DMs need?

I am very much in favor of letting the players weigh in and generally going with the flow unless it’s unreasonable. Usually when I make a ruling I ask then if they think it’s fair. I don’t try to set the game on hard mode (though somethings are intended to be challenging). This is from my last session and it may give you an idea of how receptive I am to player input (just for context they fairly easily assassinated two major NPCs which seemed fine to be, I didn’t think I needed to make more challenging rulings just to protect major bad guys or make them more of a challenge): HERE
This seems to serve my claimed distinction, that the emphasis placed on Rule Zero is kind of a misnomer. That is, Rule Zero is claimed to give GMs flexibility, because it enables them to cover situations not covered by the other rules. But the whole process of applying Rule Zero requires following several social rules, and is actually much more limited than the absolute, unbounded possibilities cited, and almost always requires either having and mostly sticking to the written rules already present, or doing the same with unwritten but verbally/tacitly agreed-upon restrictions which are ultimately themselves rules.

And that whole thing doesn't even touch Pedantic's two key criticisms.

My stance has been that as the main variables we are talking about is flexibility as a function of DM control, rule zero shouldn't be ignored - hence my position 2 analysis (allowing for any addition not conflicting with player accessible rules, but no changing of them) indicate high flexibility compared with basically any system that we are not allowing for any changes or addition to those rules.

And of course if you allow for addition of any rules not conflicting with known rules to non-rule zero games the flexibility analysis might become different again. But then the comparison again seem to lose the GM control variable, so it is hard to see how that exersice would say anything about the effects of GM control? After all, wasn't the reason flexibility was brought in as a topic in this thread in the first place, that someone made the claim that a design cost of limiting GM control could be loss of flexibility? (My memory is a bit hazy, so I might have gotten this wrong. Not having time to dig for the origin now :/)
I don't specifically recall the origin point for the flexibility discussion either. IIRC, someone claimed D&D was uniquely flexible among TTRPGs, others (including me) pushed back pretty hard on that, and Rule Zero was cited as why it is so. Hence why there's the response of, "How is this in any way unique?"

We might be talking past each other. Based on what others have said and analogies they introduced, I have been thinking about flexibility as a toolkit for designers. So flexibility in the sense of designability.
Whereas I have specifically been thinking of it in terms of what you can do at the table, and it has seemed pretty clear that that is what people have meant, especially with the Rule Zero stuff. Hence why I gave examples of the existing rules in DW and how they can be used for lots of situations players will encounter.

I don't understand what "flexibility of designability" even means. Are designers not at liberty to write down whatever they want whenever they want? The concept seems to be empty.

Is it right to understand that you are thinking about flexibility for players (including GM)? I usually think of choice if TTRPG for play as being about whatever experience you're aiming to have, and don't think of flexibility as salient to that.
Yes. I'm not sure why one would care about any other form of flexibility when actually recommending a system, and certainly not why someone would claim D&D was uniquely flexible in terms of "designability" when it is infamously baroque in many ways and players get terribly touchy about altering its "traditions" (even if those "traditions" are hardly traditional at all.)

It's erroneous to confine the kind of play designating itself FKR to what military types were trying to achieve more than a century ago. Yes, there are marked differences. Why should that matter?
Because they claim the label. If you claim a label such as this, you're clearly trying to say there's a deep and fundamental connection. To then blithely say the label has no bearing at all is ridiculous—if it had no bearing, it wouldn't be claimed in the first place!

More importantly, I was highlighting the clear and very circular problem here. FKR approaches emphasize an invisible rulebook. An invisible rulebook cannot be communicated. That means you cannot, even in principle, teach anyone how to play FKR-style. It is literally, actually impossible, because in absence of communication, teaching is always impossible. The "invisible" rulebook becomes the inaccessible rulebook. The rules, whatever they may be, are still there, and will absolutely still constrain you, but you cannot give them voice, nor can you subject them to evaluation in any intentional way. You just slowly accrete intuitions and hope coincidences and accidents don't (or haven't) lead you to develop poor ones. This is where I normally then bring up extremely common flawed DM intuitions, like a failure to understand iterative probability (aka the "make the rogue roll to sneak every round indefinitely" problem) or problems humans have with consistency, but that's a separate conversation. Point being: the invisible rulebook is actually very hard to "edit," and impossible to communicate, which severely limits practical flexibility at the table.

Let us consider an abstract example. We have two systems, one using primarily "invisible" rules and the other using primarily "visible" ones (recognizing almost all games have both to some degree: written rules and social contracts, at the very least.) There are three possible states: the rules for each system say a lot about a topic, but none of it is useful for the current situation; the rules say something about the topic, but are not conclusive; the rules say nothing about the situation.

If the invisible rules already have a lot to say on a subject, deviating from them is much more difficult than if the rules were written out, because you have to navigate a maze with walls you can't see. Rule Zero is thus not adding any flexibility at the table, and may be costing a lot in fact! If neither says anything, the two are precisely equivalent, so Rule Zero neither adds nor removes anything. The only one of these situations where Rule Zero may favor the invisible rulebook is when the system says a little but not a lot, and I frankly don't see it adding all that much: if the system really does have a meaningful hole, either way, you'll need to discuss a way to fill it, and you'll almost certainly need the consent of the players to make that repaving work.

It's play: there's no teaching objective. The reason for the choice of label is that GM (and it can also be players) are living rulebooks for their chosen subject of play.
There sure as heck are two teaching objectives. One: teach GMs how to GM. Two: teach players how to play. Invisible rules make the first impossible (you simply have to stumble through it solo, good luck buddy), and the latter nearly so.

I agree. I would also say that some of the most intense and satisfying RPG I've ever experienced has been what would now be called FKR. For me "rules-light" is a better label, because (like Messerspiel) we did have a few written rules and players put together character sheets.
At which point, one has conceded my core point: having visible rulebooks is in fact extremely useful, useful enough that even efforts to go full FKR rarely stay that way. The visible parts specifically bring communication, testability, and teachability to the system.

From my point of view, it's not a goal of FKR to teach or communicate rules. If one has that goal, as you imply a written ruleset is better. On goals, I feel that it has to be emphasised that what we're about is play. Hopscotch can't benefit from flexibility because when we play hopscotch our goal is to play hopscotch... not some other game.
But, again, TTRPGs are an effort to capture the breadth of human imagination in game form, mental lightning in a bottle. They are not like hopscotch and most other playground games, nor indeed like any sport. They are much closer to playground "Let's Pretend," hence why players make reference to that. However, they usually do so in a disparaging way, because of the common faults playground games devolve into, e.g. "oh yeah well my infinity-plus-one shield blocks your infinity sword!" Play becomes better when we are not able to act like this. We give up the freedom to declare truly absolutely anything, because many of the things we are giving up are not actually good to declare even if they are the game-theory rational choice, in order to restrict gameplay to a (still infinite!) set of declarations that are productive, playable, interesting, etc. That is why flexibility is utterly vital to play in TTRPG rules: the rules, visible or invisible, must constrain those things that are harmful to play while preserving, as much as possible, the vast field of things that are beneficial to play.

Games that eschew a pointed emphasis on Rule Zero recognize that this swings both ways: that there are things GMs with absolute latitude could do, but should not do, because they are as harmful to play as "I have my infinity-plus-one shield" is. A sacrifice of truly absolutely infinite flexibility (the flexibility to be harmful to the game) in order to strengthen practical flexibility (reliably producing good, useful results in the largest possible set of non-harmful contexts.)

I recently saw a link to this Vincent Baker blog, anyway: Very Briefly about Authority, which seems to go along with what you've said here:

Some very good designers consider the assignment of authority to be the point of rpg design. I do not.
As a designer, it's my job to make as sure as possible that the game won't break down into moment-to-moment negotiations about raw assent despite the game's rules and the players' upfront commitment to them. But the brute assignment of authority is NOT how to accomplish that.​
When my games assign authority they do so in strict service to what I consider the real point: setting expectations and granting permission.​
Couldn't agree with Mr. Baker more. Assignment of authority as the endpoint of game design is...honestly kind of sad. And avoiding constant renegotiation of the rules is a third benefit of visible rulebooks over invisible ones, a benefit I often see overlooked or even (albeit unsurprisingly) cast as a flaw, as though it were a good thing that every time a common situation comes up the game has to stop and figure out how to resolve it yet again.
 

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Yet one reads FKR-aficinado blogs speaking excitedly of being able to do anything they want. Invisible rulebooks, tactical infinity and all that.
And yet none of us narrativists have a plugged nickle for any of that, lol. I mean, there's people who have all sorts of odd beliefs and preferences. If I gave them all equal credit I'd surely be in sad sad shape. I mean, more generously, its not 'wrong' to play with less rules, but there are plusses AND minuses. My response to the FKR crowd is "and then Dave Arneson wrote a whole bunch of rules called Dungeons & Dragons, and his buddy Gary Gygax added a lot more rules to that!" Both of them were WELL VERSED in very low rule refereed play of various types. Yet they felt there was value in creating more structure. They were no fools, contrarily very experienced gamers.
 


Side question: can you use miniatures and terrain with DW? Or, I suppose you probably can, but would it make sense? D&D is tactical enough that you can, and if you do combat becomes a sort of sub-game. I am a huge miniatures/terrain enthusiast, so I like being able to put a set out on the table. If DW is a lot like Monsterhearts, it seems to me theatre of the mind would be the way to go, and there wouldn't be much point to using miniatures.
 

And yet none of us narrativists have a plugged nickle for any of that, lol. I mean, there's people who have all sorts of odd beliefs and preferences. If I gave them all equal credit I'd surely be in sad sad shape. I mean, more generously, its not 'wrong' to play with less rules, but there are plusses AND minuses. My response to the FKR crowd is "and then Dave Arneson wrote a whole bunch of rules called Dungeons & Dragons, and his buddy Gary Gygax added a lot more rules to that!" Both of them were WELL VERSED in very low rule refereed play of various types. Yet they felt there was value in creating more structure. They were no fools, contrarily very experienced gamers.
Ok, time for some history clarifications again. My understanding of the situation is that D&D was originally phrased as a inspiration booklet for minimal rule refered play (and as marketing material for chainmail, a more traditional rules based wargame). Actually putting structure to it making it reasemble an actual ruleset was as far as I known firstly done by enthusiasts by the D&D concept that also wanted more rules bound play.

The further profilation of rules addition and hardening was as far as I understand fueled by demands from the turnament scene, that needed a way to make the game play more similarly across DMs.

I hence think it is incorrect to credit Gygax and Arneson with recognising the value of structure. Rather I would say au contraire - they where fighting tooth and nails to keep the game as unstructured and free as posible while harsh market reality was forcing them to move the game further and further from that ideal.
 

Side question: can you use miniatures and terrain with DW? Or, I suppose you probably can, but would it make sense? D&D is tactical enough that you can, and if you do combat becomes a sort of sub-game. I am a huge miniatures/terrain enthusiast, so I like being able to put a set out on the table. If DW is a lot like Monsterhearts, it seems to me theatre of the mind would be the way to go, and there wouldn't be much point to using miniatures.
While you don't exactly need miniatures and terrain, you can use them for sure and they would serve the same role as in D&D: be an easily readable model of physical space within the fiction.
 

Side question: can you use miniatures and terrain with DW? Or, I suppose you probably can, but would it make sense? D&D is tactical enough that you can, and if you do combat becomes a sort of sub-game. I am a huge miniatures/terrain enthusiast, so I like being able to put a set out on the table. If DW is a lot like Monsterhearts, it seems to me theatre of the mind would be the way to go, and there wouldn't be much point to using miniatures.
While you don't exactly need miniatures and terrain, you can use them for sure and they would serve the same role as in D&D: be an easily readable model of physical space within the fiction.
But I would add that - without being any sort of miniatures enthusiast - you probably wouldn't need your measuring tape or firing dowel.

In the same way, I use my GH maps to model the geography of the setting in my Torchbearer game, but we don't bother counting hexes!
 

Ok, time for some history clarifications again. My understanding of the situation is that D&D was originally phrased as a inspiration booklet for minimal rule refered play (and as marketing material for chainmail, a more traditional rules based wargame). Actually putting structure to it making it reasemble an actual ruleset was as far as I known firstly done by enthusiasts by the D&D concept that also wanted more rules bound play.

The further profilation of rules addition and hardening was as far as I understand fueled by demands from the turnament scene, that needed a way to make the game play more similarly across DMs.

I hence think it is incorrect to credit Gygax and Arneson with recognising the value of structure. Rather I would say au contraire - they where fighting tooth and nails to keep the game as unstructured and free as posible while harsh market reality was forcing them to move the game further and further from that ideal.
That...makes no sense at all given the extensive, byzantine rules we got even in the oldest of D&D books. They were very clearly pushing to include some kinds of structure, and the early books make some pretty strident claims in that regard. If they were fighting this alleged fight, why did they break from it so readily, and why did they not make it unequivocally clear what they cared about doing? Why introduce tons of new spells, why create new classes like Thief and Cleric? These things clearly indicate a trend toward system from the very earliest stages of the game. Sure, it wasn't the same kind of "a rule for everything and everything has its rule" approach of 3e (which I've already criticized in this thread), but it was still a push away from "genuinely absolutely no structure unless it's absolutely necessary." The Cleric was NOT added because of market forces. It was added because Sir Fang was stupidly OP and Gary wanted to bring him to heel.

While you don't exactly need miniatures and terrain, you can use them for sure and they would serve the same role as in D&D: be an easily readable model of physical space within the fiction.
Clint_L can't see my posts, but I can say that you can absolutely use miniatures and terrain if you find it helpful. I often draw quickie maps in MS Paint for my players so they know the generalized positions of things. No gridlines, just...what does the arena look like, where are we at, where's the opposition at? Had to stop, one might say, in flagrante pugnato for family reasons last session, but I drafted up a map with shifting positions to make sure it was clear what was going on. For the future, I might use paint.net instead, since it has layers and will thus make editing easier.
 

And yet none of us narrativists have a plugged nickle for any of that, lol. I mean, there's people who have all sorts of odd beliefs and preferences. If I gave them all equal credit I'd surely be in sad sad shape. I mean, more generously, its not 'wrong' to play with less rules, but there are plusses AND minuses. My response to the FKR crowd is "and then Dave Arneson wrote a whole bunch of rules called Dungeons & Dragons, and his buddy Gary Gygax added a lot more rules to that!" Both of them were WELL VERSED in very low rule refereed play of various types. Yet they felt there was value in creating more structure. They were no fools, contrarily very experienced gamers.
I really don't see different modes of RPG being in any necessary conflict like this. There's no need for a narrativist crowd versus FKR crowd mentality. We can celebrate our diversity in approaches to play. Generally, I would say that a less diverse ecosystem is a less healthy one.

Modern FKR came about with the benefit of a far greater exploration of the TTRPG design-space than that which DA and GG had access to. Very experienced gamers realised they could achieve the play they wanted more successfully with fewer rules. This poses no threat to narrativists that must be resisted by denigrating FKR. Up thread folk listed some affordances that they desired: many of those are easily met with fewer rules. Want to split the party? I can do that in FKR without a pause. Want to toggle the zoom? There are no rules to get in the way of that. Want to change genre? I can do it in a heartbeat. This doesn't show that FKR is better than other modes.

As I've said above, to me what it shows is that debate about flexibility has no particular value. As a player (counting GM among them) it's not a goal of my RPG game text choices that they can do anything. It's my goal to achieve the distinctive experiences latent in each game text. When I choose Ars Magica, it's not because it offers any special flexibility, it's because I want to play a magi with my loyal companions and servants.
 

While you don't exactly need miniatures and terrain, you can use them for sure and they would serve the same role as in D&D: be an easily readable model of physical space within the fiction.
Positionally, DW has hand, close, reach, near, far. There's no action-economy. That's is not the same as D&D fantasy skirmish combat using an action-economy that matters.

This is just like earlier debate where some felt they could easily include X in D&D and that would serve the same role as in another game, and another group resisted that. If we're saying we can add what we like, then all games are equally flexibile. If we're saying that we value the distinctive experience of each game (we can't add what we like) then flexibility counts for naught.

At first I thought there might be something worthwhile in discussing flexibility from the point of view of affordances available to game designers. As the discussion has unfolded, I feel it is or skirts being about entrenching existing preferences.
 
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