D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Micah Sweet]

Asked and answered. Whatever they need to be for the purposes of the game & setting.

To clarify: as long as you don’t lazily design your orcs (or any other sentient creatures in fiction or RPGs) using RW negative stereotypes, you’re in the clear. It’s not hard. Authors & game designers across time and around the world have done so frequently and continue so to do.

Turning it around…in that last sentence of yours I quoted, you’re implying there’s some kind of inherent, unavoidable link between being offensive and not being bland. This begs the question: WHY? There is no “offensive/bland” curve for fictional species analogous to a supply & demand curve for economics. They’re independent, not interdependent concepts.

In most cases, yes. But orcs are so associated with controversial tropes that its very difficult to extricate them. What is their character without their tribal lifestyle, and their propensity for being used as raiders or soldiers for the big bad? Take those things away, and what makes orcs not humans with green skin and sharp teeth?

 

[Micah Sweet]

The LevelUp Core Adventurer's Guide seems to fit the bill. There is a mention of the racism of other beings, but you could easily delete that part and still have a fine player species.

Level Up is the closest I've seen, but I would argue that you'd need to replace that racism mention, if desired, with something or the blandness factor goes up. And it can't be cultural in the core heritage.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In most cases, yes. But orcs are so associated with controversial tropes that it’s very difficult to extricate them. What is their character without their tribal lifestyle, and their propensity for being used as raiders or soldiers for the big bad? Take those things away, and what makes orcs not humans with green skin and sharp teeth?

Having a tribal culture doesn’t make them controversial, nor does their popularity as mercenaries or irregulars. Nobody is really calling that objectionable nor asking for those to be removed from their shtick.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Having a tribal culture doesn’t make them controversial, nor does their popularity as mercenaries or irregulars. Nobody is really calling that objectionable nor asking for those to be removed from their shtick.

And yet they have been removed in some cases from the descriptions, like in Level Up. One D&D was pretty cagey about orcs too. I'm actually really curious about how Pathfinder handles them; I have no idea. Eberron keeps the tribal part I believe, but what makes them different from humans with a tribal culture over there?

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not to make lore be committee

I'm saying WOTC designer and writers who are professional should

1. make orc lore that makes sense in the context of the game
2. make half orc lore that makes sense in the context of the game
3. make hale elf lore that makes sense in the context of the game
4. make drow lore that makes sense in the context of the game
5. make hobgoblin lore that makes sense in the context of the game

What exactly is the context of the game? And how do those things not fit it?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And yet they have been removed in some cases from the descriptions, like in Level Up.

Perhaps that aspect didn’t fit that take on orcs. That doesn’t make that aspect “controversial”, just at odds with the plans of those particular designers.

That kind of change happens frequently across products. Like the cannibalism of Athasian halflings.

Eberron keeps the tribal part I believe, but what makes them different from humans with a tribal culture over there?

Dude, simply typing “Eberron orcs” into your search engine of choice should enlighten you:

Orc

Orcs are large and powerful humanoids who can be found across Khorvaire, but particularly in the Demon Wastes, the Mror Holds, and the Shadow Marches.[6] While the people of the Five Nations sometimes depict them as savage brutes and ravaging barbarians, most orcs are in fact a deeply spiritual...

eberron.fandom.com

Amazingly, not dependent on controversial or objectionable stereotypes.

 

[Incenjucar]

Level Up is the closest I've seen, but I would argue that you'd need to replace that racism mention, if desired, with something or the blandness factor goes up. And it can't be cultural in the core heritage.

In the setting I'm working on, orcs are often associated with heroism. Their great lifting strength and ability to charge into danger makes them perfect for a variety of rescue scenarios. This makes them a bit prone to grandiosity, so they tend to pour their ego into their architecture and other cultural activities. If you had to compare them with a human culture, it would be a bit like the legendary versions of ancient Greece culture. Lots of oiled up wrestling and lifting boulders.

This took me very little effort to think up based in their species abilities.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I'm actually really curious about how Pathfinder handles them; I have no idea.

Orc - Ancestries - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database

Orcs often struggle to gain acceptance among other communities, who frequently see them as brutes. Those who earn the loyalty of an orc friend, however, soon learn that an orc's fidelity and honesty are unparalleled. Orc barbarians, fighters, and rangers are prized as gladiators and mercenaries...

2e.aonprd.com

Link to the Pathfinder 2e orcs.

 

[AnotherGuy]

The point that is often made is that barbarians (those who are barbaric) are uncivilized, and often raiders. The term barbarian, and this image of them, comes from the Romans

Greeks. The Romans continued with it but the original use I believe was by the Greeks.
It was an othering term for not native Greek speakers and those of Greek descent.

So, the very concept of "these people are barbarians with a primitive life-style and a lack of civilization" comes from lies and propoganda spread by the Romans about the people they were at war with. We can easily point out that the entire starting point for this concept... was a racist lie, directed from the Romans to the early germanic people. So, stating "this isn't racist, because those people are barbarian tribes"... doesn't actually help your case.

Using that logic what are your thoughts on the Barbarian class as a name then? Too racist?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Just reading a bit of DoIP.

Almost at the start in the description of the Sword mountains: "These steep, craggy, snow-capped mountains are home to scattered tribes of orcs as well as other monsters."

It's clear that DnD has no clue what its orcs are meant to be. Are they meant to be a playable sapient species like humans and elves? Or are they meant to be simple monsters like trolls and wargs?

It's trying to be both at once, and it just doesn't work.