D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

[Micah Sweet]

Don't particularly care, because it is the 50th anniversary set, obviously it is going to be a bit pricier. And f they include more content, they end up charging more. That just makes sense.

It only makes sense if people buy it. Time will tell I guess.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Beware Romulans bearing gifts.
Never trust a Ferengi giving you back money
The Cardassians have no honour.

Deep Space Nine was full of this and yet was arguably the best series. Despite Disco being written over 2 decades later with all the correct modern sensibilities...

Discovery was/is a worse show than DS9 for several reasons, IMO.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Discovery was/is a worse show than DS9 for several reasons, IMO.

Agree.
But one cannot deny the racial tension between the various species on the space station on DS9 created far more interesting stories and a more immersive experience.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes. That's the inspiration I get from the lore you provided. I would not have the inspiration for those stories if that lore never existed. And it's not for D&D to tell it, but for me the consumer to be inspired and create my own stories for my table.

So, here's a question. Why weren't you inspired by this lore before? It is old lore, decades old at this point. And what do you feel about the things DnD has told, like the stroy of Strahd, that is something that DnD has told, so is that a bad thing? I'm just trying to figure out what point you are trying to make in this idea that bad lore is good because you could come up with a story DnD is never going to tell.

I do. Think of it as in Vtes where vampires struggle with containing the Beast. Or Toreador distracted by beauty. Or halflings fighting their inquisitive nature. Why must every creature be seemingly bland with no supernatural taint or call driving it.

Edit: This discussion will not be worth it. You're literally going against my desire to be creative with the lore provide.

Since when do Halflings fight their inquisitive nature? That's never been a thing.

And sure, you can see it like vampires. But the problem is that it is also pretty much exactly how mixed race people were talked about in the American South. And with the OTHER aspects of the Half-Orc and Orc, it forms together into a problem. Also, it is unlike vampires containing the beast, because you pretty much never see a mainstream vampire in hides with bone necklaces. Vampires are an archetype that lends itself to more Renaissance stylings. And that matters. A vampire who struggles with their inner monster while leaving in a mansion and attending galas and balls is a very different aesthetic to someone whose mixed blood allows them to pretend to be part of society as a low-class person in the slums, but is truly a beast at heart.

Be as creative as you want, but you seem to be taking the position that because you could be creative with something, it isn't flawed, but that isn't how this works. Especially since you were the one demanding us to answer why Half-Orcs are problematic. Why ask for an answer you are ultimately going to act confused and dismissive of?

 

[AnotherGuy]

Older editions could also sometimes use too much purple prose and talk in circles. Again, this seems like we are moving solely into a discussion of the technical aspects of the books, and frankly I wouldn't want smaller text.

My eyesight is also failing and Chris Perkins mentioned something similar in the interview clip about the new DMG.

 

[Guest 85555]

This speaks to me and my love for Mystara and the mythos of the Vtes world.
I've read up a little on Romanian history when I was prepping to run a Transylvania By Night Ravenloft game.
I read up on Bulgarian and Serbian superstitions when planning to run a campaign in Karameikos.
I did research on medieval costs when the PCs were interested in building and maintaining a castle.
...etc

And it can go beyond history too.

... Yes, it is presented as good by the author, because it is the Fremen Mirage. But unless there is someone else in the story who is presenting it, many of those that call Conan a Barbarian are using a title given to him by his enemies, and by those who are part of the corrupted society.



Country life versus City life is literally the Fremen Mirage. You are saying that there are only elements, but then your counterpoint is just parts of the Mirage. And again, yes, the Author who is putting forth this idea of the good and value in rugged hard living that doesn't make you soft, but makes you strong, is going to present the idea as good. But it only really works if the city life, the life of being comfortable and sedentary is presented as bad and weak. But it also means that the city-folk are using the term derisively, and they are proved wrong by the author.

And this is where the Barbarian probably does well in DnD, because the Fremen Mirage doesn't exist in DnD. The nobility is seen as corrupt and decadent, but we also have many medieval ideas of the "true noble" who is a strong leader and a wise man, or the power of scholarship presented in wizards. There are other forms of power available in DnD, so it doesn't become a major issue. But it is still really easy to see where the problematic parts are.



You keep acting like this counters my point, and I don't know why. I've never claimed that the term barbarian represents a specific group. I also don't see how your anecdote disproves my point, if anything it strengthens it. She calls you that because the connotations of the word are "crude" and often Barbarians are associated nearly exclusively with tribal people. It isn't spelled out exactly, but it also isn't something that is actively worked against in the text of the class or the presentations.

It isn't big enough to make a stink over, but it is something to keep an eye on, something to consider changing, just because it isn't wonderful the way it is. I'd also like to see more tribal people presented as full wizards, and not just lesser "shamans" as they tend to do.




Because we can find a better, more evocative word. Yes, this issue isn't exclusive, but not being exclusive is no reason not to keep an open mind about potentially changing the word. I love the class, I love the imagery, I just think it is possible to improve it. And yet, the idea of the name of the class changing is supposed to have scared me into backing off an earlier point, like the name changing would somehow be this massive negative thing we should avoid. But that didn't apply to Priest did it? Or Thief? Or Fighting-Man? Or Magic-User? We've changed the names of classes before, why can't we do so again?



But they also spark biases. They can get us comfortable not questioning things that should be questioned. And how is this potential interest quashed if we have a different name? A more nuanced and complete vision? If Cleric had a valid class identity associated with Shamans, would that not get people more interested in shamans? You can accurately depict holy people of other cultures AND spark interest in them.

And again, the point I responded to that led to this tangent was basically a gotcha. A "but wouldn't this mean we should challenge the name of this class? HAHA gotcha, now you have to agree with me because no one wants that extreme change!" But... I don't see it as an extreme change. I have seen good arguments for the change, just like I've seen good arguments to go back to Priest for the cleric, and good arguments to change fighter to warrior.

I just don't see it as a big deal.



Do you honestly think history is so boring, that an accurate depiction of it wouldn't be entertaining? Haven't there been dozens of great films exploring real historical events? It could be presented in a boring fashion, but I've been entertained watching a guy discuss domes in Venice without him having to make up false facts or present them as the work of aliens.

Sure, you don't HAVE to change the name of the Barbarian, it isn't a requirement, but... why would it be bad? You keep presenting this as some sort of terrible deed, as the destruction of the entire class, but the argument is mostly that the name isn't accurate and could be better. We can still entertain, without having to perpetuate the biases and tropes of the past. It isn't an insurmountable task.

I am knee deep in Pinkerton talk right now. Will get to this. Just want to say Fremen mirage is a simplistic kind of theory about thr cycle of civilizations in history. This is present in Conan, he specifically does get into that idea (so I was m not disputing that). I am saying he just as often is using Conan to contrast country versus city life which isn’t the same thing. That isn’t about a cycle. That is just about rural values versus city values.

 

[Guest 85555]

Agree.
But one cannot deny the racial tension between the various species on the space station on DS9 created far more interesting stories and more immersive experience.

Alien Nation doesn’t get enough love

 

[Vaalingrade]

Deep Space Nine was full of this and yet was arguably the best series. Despite Disco being written over 2 decades later with all the correct modern sensibilities...

DS9 being good and Discovery being bad has nothing to do with how much racism was in them.

And it's still really weird seeing racism equated with quality. But then again, it was just as weird that someone just casually assumed I tell racist jokes to my friends.

Not new, being mixed and 'passing', I get it a lot, but it's still weird and bad.

 

[AnotherGuy]

So, here's a question. Why weren't you inspired by this lore before? It is old lore, decades old at this point.

Because I have not delved into Orc lore until we've had this convo. So much depends on the setting, characters selected and time.

For setting - I've DMed 20 years in Mystara - Glantri, Karameikos, Soderfjord, Darokin and Minrothad Guilds. I haven't even covered half the nations. There is so much interesting content.
Last Decade - Forgotten Realms and Sigil.

Characters - I need a player to select an Orc or Half Orc and ideally attain high level play for the stories I proposed. I'm currently in my first campaign where we are playing all the way to level 20.

As for Time - I have never run a Dracula story and yet I was in Varsity researching Romanian history 25+ years ago for such an adventure.
There are many such ideas that I have never put into play.

And what do you feel about the things DnD has told, like the stroy of Strahd, that is something that DnD has told, so is that a bad thing? I'm just trying to figure out what point you are trying to make in this idea that bad lore is good because you could come up with a story DnD is never going to tell.

How are you using the word bad?
Bad =racism, colonialism, slavery...etc
Bad = poor storytelling

With regards to Strahd - I've read the first two Ravenloft novels in the Darklords series and I have all the Strahd modules except for 5e's. I have never run Strahd (yet) so I'm not sure what you're referring to specifically.

Since when do Halflings fight their inquisitive nature? That's never been a thing.

Technically neither do half-orcs and orcs. There are no mechanics sadly. So it's fluff, use it or don't.
But I think these descriptors are a feature both for DMs when showcasing Orc NPCs and for players who'd like to lean into the character's flaws and strengths of the race.

And sure, you can see it like vampires. But the problem is that it is also pretty much exactly how mixed race people were talked about in the American South. And with the OTHER aspects of the Half-Orc and Orc, it forms together into a problem. Also, it is unlike vampires containing the beast, because you pretty much never see a mainstream vampire in hides with bone necklaces. Vampires are an archetype that lends itself to more Renaissance stylings. And that matters. A vampire who struggles with their inner monster while leaving in a mansion and attending galas and balls is a very different aesthetic to someone whose mixed blood allows them to pretend to be part of society as a low-class person in the slums, but is truly a beast at heart.

What are you asking here? Why are mixed bloods not treated with dignity by their parental races?
You realise that's a story trope you're asking to extinguish right? The outcast, having to prove themselves.
Are you that offended we're not picking up D&D fantasy in the timeline of Stardate xxxx where everyone has adopted modern sensibilities?

Be as creative as you want, but you seem to be taking the position that because you could be creative with something, it isn't flawed, but that isn't how this works. Especially since you were the one demanding us to answer why Half-Orcs are problematic. Why ask for an answer you are ultimately going to act confused and dismissive of?

You're correct in that in that I asked where was there racism in the PHB. Now that you've answered what the Half Orcs perceived flaws are - I'm challenging them.

 

[AnotherGuy]

But then again, it was just as weird that someone just casually assumed I tell racist jokes to my friends.

It was more (as an example) if you have an Italian and a Brit and whether they tease each other playfully with racist tropes about each others cultures as would be common amongst friends. Apologies, I didn't make myself clear.

No Brits and Italians were harmed by the posting of this post.