D&D (2024) How did I miss this about the Half races/ancestries

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Can they? Sure. Will they? Who knows.

But it hardly matters for you, since you keep saying that you rely on Level Up and other 3pp.
A lot of people still play WotC D&D, so it matters to the community I remain a part of, and what many new players will expect gaming to be like. I don't watch Critical Role or other live plays either, but their effect on the community still matters to me.
 

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I don't think Chaosmancer means to make orcs pretty--and I certainly don't. What we're talking about is not saying that ugliness = evil = it's OK to kill them or deny them a homeland.
Sure. Not every goal I proposed was about their physical features. The direction the campaign would take would depend I guess on the interests of the PCs
 
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See, I would say that the personal tensions were much better than any racial tensions. Especially since DS9 showed so many people of any particular species who didn't fit into that species' hat. It made the racial tensions look like stupid bigotry. But the personal conflicts were far more engaging.
Yes agree but challenging and defeating that bigotry and exposing it as stupid (perhaps doing so with grace) in social and political challenges created some great dialogue and smart play by our protagonists on the show.

Anyways it's an added tool to add further complication, it's maybe not for everyone, what can I tell you.
Personal conflicts, racial conflicts, econominc/class conflicts, ideological conflicts, emotional conflicts....
 
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I had an idea for a new thread inspired by this one, where we share how elves and orcs (and if they exist in your games, half-elves and half-orcs) are represented in your homebrew game worlds. Do they follow any of the tropes, always go against them, or some mix in between?

It could be extended to other races/species/origins like dwarf or gnome, but since this discussion/debate has focused on elves, orcs, and their mixed heritage descendants, I think starting there would be best.

The goal wouldn't be to dunk on each other's version of them, but to bring awareness to the (potentially) wide range they encompass. Would anybody be interested in that?

Note: I didn't search to see if this already exists, so please don't be rude if it's already a thing.
 

I see the opposite. Rather than normalizing it "Thanks to the magical working of the multiverse Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together." "wonderous pairing" - Implies to me it is weird, and unusual, while they have made it clear all sapient species can do it, when it happens it is "magical and wonderous", not something that happens every time different species get busy. Though half-elves and half-orcs are the more common of these pairings, so are less weird.
I see the point.

At the same time, these descriptions are matter-of-fact. The method of reproducing between sapient species is done by means "magic" and "wonder". Magics and wonders are common and ordinary in most D&D settings.

It is like saying, "Thanks to scientific technology, different sapient species can have children together." It would be a statement about what is normal.

In a world of magic, it is normal for diverse sapient species to have children together. One need only look at most premodern worldviews to see what this looks like. For example, in Norse traditions Giant, Elf, Dwarf, As, Van, and Human, are known to produce children with each other. Likewise shapeshift into Beast forms to sire Beast offspring. And other examples of genetic engineering sotospeak are possible too. Because innate magic.
 
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I guess where I struggle with your point is 1) why having no idea what aliens are like means we can't give grace in terms of our interpretation 2) What arguments you think are possible to exclude humans if we expand as I talk about.

My reason for 1 is just for the sake of being thorough and making sure we understand what we are extending this term to mean because when we do meet an alien species or if we recognize a species on earth as having moral agency and being sapient, I think it isn't as simple as saying it is automatic that we treat them as humans (again see my AI example). We just don't know what the context will be and what the nature of these beings will be, because we might not yet have imagined that.

For 2 my concern I think is well founded. If the default definition of personhood doesn't automatically include human beings (and not saying you are making this case), then you can easily exclude people by saying they lack moral agency or free will or they are not fully sapient (again this does depend on how Personhood is defined). But if it is just two points like that, and doesn't also say something like "and anyone who is a human being" then there most definitely have been arguments in the past that could put people like the disabled, the mentally handicapped, people with serious mental disorders that impact their ability to make informed choices, etc. And in the past there have been whole groups of humans not fully recognized as people (like women, and slaves). So I just think if personhood is going to be the thing that marks what protections people get, then you have to include all human beings in that.

Also I will say I am a lot less concerned about this point than point 2. This is something where I get the moral concern and think it is valid. But I do worry about a definition of person that isn't linked to humanity very closely


I mean, sure, you can argue free-will doesn't exist, but then that applies to all humans and likely all people. There isn't a specific instance that denies free-will to one person, but keeps it for another.
You and I might agree this is the case. But I can bet someone will make an argument that a person with significant enough brain damage to their frontal lobe who lacks impulse control doesn't have free will in that sense. Or someone int he grip of a drug addition doesn't have free will. Or someone suffering from the effects of Alzheimer's disease. You an easily see people making arguments eugenics and social darwinism using these kinds of reasons. Which is why I think our personhood should be viewed as inherent and obvious.




And if it is, it would be like trying to argue that since the definition of human include bipedalism, that someone who was born without legs isn't human. That's obviously false, because definitions of things such as this are obviously going to have exceptions for exceptional situations, but that doesn't change the baseline to allow discrimination to be okay.
Except being a human doesn't require having both your legs. Being a person, at least how this term gets used in conversations around ethics, very much depends on you meeting the criteria individually. That is one of the reasons the debate around personhood is so contentious
 

Of course you are right, death of the author and all that, you can ascribe meaning to things that weren't intended. If you continue to insist your orcs are racist stereotype of a particular race, you go for it. I shouldn't try and stop you.

But similarly you shouldn't keep trying to invalidate my interpretation, that orcs are a representation of an aspect of the whole of humanity, not any particular subset. You might not like that interpretation but that doesn't invalidate it.

You carry on with your racist interpretation and I'll stick with mine.

It is entirely possible for a text to have more than one interpretation. I have not disagreed with your interpretation at all. Why would I? It’s pretty accurate.

Your the one insisting that we only accept your interpretation.
 



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