D&D General How much control do DMs need?

[Campbell]

People have stated that controls on the GM are a universal good with no explanation why. They just assert it as truth. That makes me try to guess why they believe what they do because they won't explain.

Not all games have to operate the same. In fact over the past half century the most popular games don't have hard constraints on the GM. I don't think their necessary, it seems like they don't harm the popularity and growth of games that do not have them.

Who is saying that? All anyone has ever said is that different sets of constraints can enable different forms of play that a more freeform approach is incapable of providing. That we know this because we have learned how to approach roleplaying games in different ways. It's just as true that D&D provides an experience you will never be able to achieve in Apocalypse World as the opposite.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So, those who oppose your "position" play "the most soulless way possible"? Do you really mean that? Or am I misinterpreting your intent here?

....no. I'm saying we are being accused of playing in the most soulless way possible.

Have I really? Is "dirty thing to be avoided in most cases" what I meant when I said "not all encounters need to be balanced"? Or are you back to inferring something that is not there and/or using hyperbole again?

I mean, you literally used scare quotes. What was I supposed to think?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Who is saying that? All anyone has ever said is that different sets of constraints can enable different forms of play that a more freeform approach is incapable of providing.

Indeed. That there are genuinely irreplaceable virtues to a structured approach, as opposed to the general assumption in this sort of conversation, which is that structure is always bad and should be eliminated whenever and wherever possible.

 

[Oofta]

Who is saying that? All anyone has ever said is that different sets of constraints can enable different forms of play that a more freeform approach is incapable of providing.

So you're saying different games work differently. Shocking.

All I'm saying is that I like the way D&D works. That I like some of the flexibility D&D provides in setting and tone of the game. That doesn't reflect one way or another on other games. I have no idea why you're having such a conniption about my opinions.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

....no. I'm saying we are being accused of playing in the most soulless way possible.

Well, that's certainly not nice and I don't hold that position. Are you sure others do?

I mean, you literally used scare quotes. What was I supposed to think?

scare quotes? Where?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To give an example of what I am talking about, a player might describe receiving a piece of mail from a childhood, begging for help back in their home village. And they may or may not give me more details about the village and their relationship, and what the problem might be, but more likely they will let me fill in the rest and enjoy the surprise.

In my own system, you have various ways to push the narrative, but they’re nearly all in character.

For instance, you can simply decide that you got in touch with a contact and arranged a getaway plane in advance. You can’t use that contact again until you’ve had downtime, and you only have a few contacts, but you can also spend stuff you don’t automatically get back, like favors and assets.

Attribute points can be spent to push skill checks, but not to change or recontextualize the narrative.

Finally, there are traits and downtime Endeavors which can give you plans or other temporary widgets you can use to basically flashback and tell the table how you planned for this occurrence, and actually you have an out.

These are all very limited, and most have to be earned, but they allow the PC to change the narrative, without needing to really drop character.

 

[Campbell]

@Swarmkeeper

The contention that @Lanefan made was that different structures of play that put different sorts of constraints on the GM reduce the GM role to that of a soulless robot and scene setter. That is the farthest thing from what running a game like Stonetop, Masks or Apocalypse World is like. Every moment of play is underscored by GM creativity as they respond to player actions and present thematically resonant conflicts that speak directly to player character interests/themes.

The GM in Apocalypse World is an emotionally invested and active participant who is making creative decisions and targeted judgement call every moment of play. The constraints they operate under allow them to push hard on the players and their characters in a way that is socially difficult without those constraints.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

@Swarmkeeper

The contention that @Lanefan made was that different structures of play that put different sorts of constraints on the GM reduce the GM role to that of a soulless robot and scene setter. That is the farthest thing from what running a game like Stonetop, Masks or Apocalypse World is like. Every moment of play is underscored by GM creativity as they respond to player actions and present thematically resonant conflicts that speak directly to player character interests/themes.

The GM in Apocalypse World is an emotionally invested and active participant who is making creative decisions and targeted judgement call every moment of play. The constraints they operate under allow them to push hard on the players and their characters in a way that is socially difficult without those constraints.

Ah - thank you for the explanation!
I suspect I'm not the only one around here unfamiliar with some of these non-D&D games. Much appreciated synopsis.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Well, that's certainly not nice and I don't hold that position. Are you sure others do?


scare quotes? Where?

My apologies. I spoke falsely. I swear I remember seeing them but they obviously aren't there.

But yes. I am quite certain that "balance" is considered a four-letter-word for a lot of folks. To even mention it will get you the stink eye; to say that having it as a part of a system will get loud condemnation and questions of why you want the game to fail, etc.

 

[loverdrive]

But if I understand the rules that are constraining the GM, it would be less immersive for me.

Well, what can I say, skill issue. Git gud.

Suspension of disbelief is an active process, not some kind of line in the sand.