D&D General What is player agency to you?

[mamba]

But that is undeniably the result, and putting what the DM wants ahead of the player's.

it is one of the consequences, no one said it wasn’t. It is not the only result however, we are weighing different things here, player agency on the one hand (even though I start to not like that term in this context), and a world that behaves realistically / consistently on the other

 

[Micah Sweet]

Great. "You may have a seat on this council, but we do not grant you the title of Master." That is the actual position you're taking on this.

Is there any wonder people side eye such things?

I just find it so hard to believe that so many GMs just...want to find reasons not to let people do things. And yet I get repeated evidence that that is exactly what they want. Why? What do you get out of treating every other attempt to actually USE character features as totally pointless?

No one has said that (and if I'm wrong about that I want specific examples). You are making assumptions that aren't proven by the people you're addressing.

 

[SteveC]

the DM says there is no way to get an audience, I gave several possible reasons for why it could be denied. That does not mean the character knows the reason or even that it is impossible, that depends on the circumstances

Yes, the DM is quite within rights to say exactly that. And that sounds quite arbitrary and removes my perception of agency in the game. There are a million reasons why a DM can say "hey, you have a skill. You have a background. You have a class which you believe should enable you to do this thing. You can't." And that's what a discussion of agency is about.

A DM who pulls the "I know you think you have a reason why you should at least be able to make this attempt to do something, but you can't" card is likely going to have to have a discussion about it out of the game. At the very best, there are some serious clashes between the players and the DMs view of the world. At the worst, it smacks of railroading. Or the dreaded Viking Helmet. Maybe the DM has a good reason for making a particular ruling to shut things down. But since we're talking agency in a game in this thread, I'm going to have to say that this doesn't make players feel they have it when it happens too often.

 

[mamba]

But since we're talking agency in a game in this thread, I'm going to have to say that this doesn't make players feel they have it when it happens too often.

emphasis on the 'too often' part, we are consistently talking about a rare exception (or at least I am)

 

[Mort]

well, since we are talking in hypotheticals here, I do not have an example. Ultimately because the conditions in the campaign resulted in it, if you call that because the DM wanted it to be that way, I am not going to argue that point.

The goal is not denying player agency however, but to set up a scenario for the players to figure out and overcome, just like all the others

See, this is different.

If the noble feature generally works.. And then when it doesn't work, the PCs not only smell a rat but an adventure results? That, to me, is a win. And a great angle on the feature.

It's a far cry from the DM constantly shutting the feature down "for reasons." Especially if those reasons are never revealed to the PCs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

@FrogReaver

So here is the scenario at the table: the GM presents, in whatever fashion, the opportunity for the player to have their PC travel to an unknown demiplane with unknown characteristics (eg there's a Well of Many Worlds or something like that). The player declares that their PC takes up the opportunity (eg steps through the portal, dives into the Well, or whatever else). Now the GM tells the player - at some appropriate juncture, such as when the player has their PC look for eggs - that there are none, as it's a lifeless demiplane.

To me that is obviously low player agency RPGing. The player is just prompting the GM to reveal the GM's conception of the fiction. The player is not establishing that fiction.

What does establishing the fiction as a player have to do with player agency?

Seriously? I just don't get it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

it is one of the consequences, no one said it wasn’t. It is not the only result however, we are weighing different things here, player agency on the one hand (even though I start to not like that term in this context), and a world that behaves realistically / consistently on the other

I know I'll happily punt the later into the stratosphere every time they come into conflict.

I've seen so many games die on the hill of 'this is realistic' or 'there must be consequences' followed by everyone holding their nose and suffering through the 'realism'.

 

[SteveC]

Is there a reason you can't have those kinds of connections in a GM-created world? Are there not guilds and organizations in such settings?

Of course they can. At the end of the day, all games of D&D are GM created worlds. What I was responding to was the notion that a character couldn't have a connection baked into the game in a larger environment. That they could only find connections core to who they are (and in real life, I have at least a couple levels in 'Packer fan') in a small, local game. That hasn't been the case for me in the real world, so it seems not crazy to apply the same ideas to a game world.

I was merely saying that I find a game world that is created as if the player characters were the important protagonists is more interesting and feels like it has more depth. It's a notion that's largely at odds with, say, OSR play. I think people coming from that perspective believe the exact reverse of what I do. And we're both playing the game correctly. I try and go out of my way and say "I find" or "it seems to me" because, well it does. That doesn't mean other people can't play amazing games using an entirely different core set of beliefs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why are the PCs on the City of Brass? Who established that part of the fiction?

Why does that matter?

 

[mamba]

I know I'll happily punt the later into the stratosphere every time they come into conflict.

I know, I find we are frequently at opposite ends when it comes to what we want from the game