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D&D General What is player agency to you?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Gaming means manipulating for advantage. You haven't identified a single advantage in respect of which a BW player might manipulate the GM.
I don't have to. Discretion = ability to get advantage through manipulation. Besides, I already gave an example earlier with the voting. At the very least you can game the DM in such a way as to get his vote. And I also gave the example of gaming the DM in such a way as to make it less likely or have no chance at of saying no. Remember, should say yes isn't the same as must say yes. That discretion is gameable for advantage. Even if the advantage is minimal, it still exists and can be gamed for.

No matter what rule you point out in Burning Wheel that includes discretion, I will be able to tell you how it's possible to game it for some amount of advantage.
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I don't have to. Discretion = ability to get advantage through manipulation. Besides, I already gave an example earlier with the voting. At the very least you can game the DM in such a way as to get his vote. And I also gave the example of gaming the DM in such a way as to make it less likely or have no chance at of saying no. Remember, should say yes isn't the same as must say yes. That discretion is gameable for advantage. Even if the advantage is minimal, it still exists and can be gamed for.

No matter what rule you point out in Burning Wheel that includes discretion, I will be able to tell you how it's possible to game it for some amount of advantage.
You were literally asked to, because the claim was that you are wrong, that there is no advantage for doing this "gaming," and thus asking what advantage you could possibly get from it.

So: What advantage can you possibly get from it? Because I don't see one either here. What does this "gaming" get you? Your "vote" example doesn't tell me anything at all. It really does merely confuse the issue. What is gained here? What is this nebulous advantage you keep talking about? Please, actually give a specific example, not something abstract and nebulous.
 

Its interesting to me that OMGJARGON gets complained about left and right on ENW, yet a malleable, squishy, turn of phrase like “gaming the GM” gets a complete free pass.

And make no mistake, when I say “it’s interesting,” I 100 % mean a shot from the bow. I 100 % mean OMGJARGON complaints are nearly universally about culture war priors and should get little to no credibility given what is complained about and the avalanche of stuff (and particular posters) that is predictably ignored. It would be laughable if it weren’t so embarrassing as a hobbyist.

So in the spirit of actual clarity and interrogation of an issue (rather than just transparent, culture war motivated priors), what does “gaming the GM” mean? If that was nailed down, I could probably develop some commentary about its applicability to various games. Does it mean something like:

The degenerate manipulation of play, through manipulation of a GM’s role and responsibilities in a particular game, in which one participant garners a disproportionate and unhealthy amount of well being relative to the other participants and the table-at-large?


Is the above what we’re talking about? Something else? Where are the jargon police to stridently lament and deliver us from this woe?
 

Golroc

Explorer
Supporter
I don't think I've ever experienced (on either side of the table) any kind of GM directed manipulation which wasn't based on out-of-game social interaction. It's not just because I haven't really played any of the dedicated narrativist systems - I simply don't get it, even based on the examples given earlier. Like the voting example. How is that gaming the GM? It just seems like resolving the voting mechanic to me. Or is the point that mechanics and/or GM interactions can be used to get some advantage which goes against the spirit of the game? Also, how does one manipulate the GM? For me this isn't so much about jargon, as it is me not really getting the concept. Bribes, threats, cajoling? That sort of thing?

(I am not trolling - I honestly don't get it)
 

Its interesting to me that OMGJARGON gets complained about left and right on ENW, yet a malleable, squishy, turn of phrase like “gaming the GM” gets a complete free pass.
Oh, I think you massively undersell the hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty of the OMGJARGON crowd.

Because, not only do they turn a blind eye to their own jargon, they also want double standards such that a word like 'illusionism' is OMGJARGON when you use it, but a 'technique' when they use it.

The doublethink is laughable.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
Gaming means manipulating for advantage. You haven't identified a single advantage in respect of which a BW player might manipulate the GM.
okay this is just a hypothetical, cause i don't really know the mechanics of burning wheel other than i think they're a 2d6 system? but isn't the following a situation that could reasonably happen?
I know my GM thinks that fast-talking deceptive guys are cool, i also know that they think trying to infiltrate black-ops style is really hard, i know that if i try to fast-talk the door guard the check will probably be less riskier than it really ought to be and the successes with the CHA check will likely have greater or longer lasting effects in the game,
BUT if i tried to infiltrate, i can suspect that same GM will break down the same challenge of 'get into the building' into innumerably more and potentially harder checks, my successes will get me less and my failures will cost me more, roll to climb the wall and then roll to finish climbing it, roll to pull your gear up, roll to pick the door lock on the roof, roll to avoid the guards who heard you opening the lock/door.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
okay this is just a hypothetical, cause i don't really know the mechanics of burning wheel other than i think they're a 2d6 system? but isn't the following a situation that could reasonably happen?
I know my GM thinks that fast-talking deceptive guys are cool, i also know that they think trying to infiltrate black-ops syle is really hard, i know that if i try to fast-talk the door guard the check will probably be less riskier than it really ought to be and the successes with CHA checks will likely have greater or longer lasting effects in the game,
BUT if i tried to infiltrate, i can suspect that same GM will break down the same challenge of 'get into the building' into innumerably more and potentially harder checks, my successes will get me less and my failures will cost me more, roll to climb the wall and then roll to finish climbing it, roll to pull your gear up, roll to pick the door lock on the roof, roll to avoid the guards who heard you opening the lock/door.
I don't understand how that's "gaming" the GM. I assume you enjoy playing a fast-talking deceptive guy, because that's something you would need to be bringing to the table from the beginning here. So...is it that you "gamed" the GM--got one over on them, "tricked" an advantage out of them--by choosing to play such a character well in advance? If so...that honestly just sounds really miserable, playing a narrative game not because you're interested in the narrative in question, but because you know it will be easier to succeed with it?

Like...genuinely why would anyone do that? It sounds terrible.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
I don't understand how that's "gaming" the GM. I assume you enjoy playing a fast-talking deceptive guy, because that's something you would need to be bringing to the table from the beginning here. So...is it that you "gamed" the GM--got one over on them, "tricked" an advantage out of them--by choosing to play such a character well in advance? If so...that honestly just sounds really miserable, playing a narrative game not because you're interested in the narrative in question, but because you know it will be easier to succeed with it?

Like...genuinely why would anyone do that? It sounds terrible.
no, my preferences would have nothing to do with this, my capacity to fast-talk and infiltrate in the game would be the same equal bonuses, but they are still equally available options are they not? but if i know the GM who narrates the results of my failures is likely to set easier checks and dole out less severe consequences if i try certain methods how is that not playing the GM?
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
no, my preferences would have nothing to do with this, my capacity to fast-talk and infiltrate in the game would be the same equal bonuses, but they are still equally available options are they not? but if i know the GM who narrates the results of my failures is likely to set easier checks and dole out less severe consequences if i try certain methods how is that not playing the GM?
Oh, I know you are speaking of a hypothetical--I was meaning "generic you." Why would a player do this thing? (Edit: I think I misread you at first; I'll be responding more fully with an edit.)




So, let me see if I understand the situation correctly. To avoid confusion, I will speak of a hypothetical player, Bob, and his GM, Alice.

Bob is playing in a game where the narrative premise includes infiltration of some kind. There are many ways to approach any given infiltration. Bob chooses to play a fast-talking deceptive character, not because that story is remotely interesting to him (he would prefer other stories instead), but rather because he knows Alice enjoys fast-talking deceivers, and thus the fast-talking deception part of the game will be easier to complete. When things come up, Bob falsely states that his interests are to talk fast and deceive, even though he would actually prefer some other kind of story instead, so that he can secure those moments. Alice, believing that he is being honest about his preferences, frames scenes involving infiltration as one part of play. (There will always be other parts, so this is never more than one portion of it.)

Is this supposed to be a good thing for Bob? Getting somewhat easier rolls on one specific part of one specific aspect of play, while overall getting an experience Bob isn't actually interested in having and doesn't enjoy as much as some other thing?

For clarification here, I don't know how Burning Wheel works, but at least for Dungeon World, there's...not really any ability on my part to control difficulty per se, beyond the "talk me through your process" part. All rolls are 2d6+MOD; 6- is a miss (something bad happens), 7-9 is a partial success (you get what you want and something bad, or part of what you want but not all, or one thing you wanted but not another thing you also wanted), 10+ is full success. Once dice are hitting the (digital) table, the difficulty is exactly what it is. If you bring a +3 CHA to fast-talking, or a +3 INT to hacking, or a +3 DEX to lockpicking...you'll have exactly the same probabilities either way. And, at least from my experience as a DW GM, getting advantageous results, as much as one can do so without directly affecting the difficulty scale, usually involves sharing your enthusiasm and earnestness about something. It would be pretty hard to communicate that enthusiasm consistently if you don't actually have any enthusiasm.

The severity of consequences will generally be conditioned by the roll result and the context of the scene; the former are (as stated) on a fairly fixed scale, and the latter is generally what makes sense for the conflict in question, so it's not consistently the case that every "fast-talking deception" would have lesser consequences than "crawl through the vents" or whatever. And, as a general rule, while I do have my own preferences, a player being sincerely enthusiastic about something is a HUGE reason for me to listen to what they have to say and work with them to make it happen. (As usual, that "sincerely" is doing work here: I don't tolerate exploitation, coercion, or abuse, which are all incompatible with sincerity in this sense.)

E.g., I love it when someone makes a personal sacrifice to achieve something they care even more about, but that requires that you actually care about the thing you're sacrificing and that giving it up is a real cost, not a minor one. I'm not really sure how that could be used to "get one over" on me, to "game" me, because the whole point is that your heart is really in it, at which point, you're apparently "cheating" by playing by the rules and genuinely wanting the same things I want. Which seems like not much of a trick anymore at all, but just....participating in good faith.
 
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