What is a "Narrative Mechanic"?

As much as some people didn't like the term "narrative mechanic" I don't think bringing "diegetic" and "adiegetic"* into this much helped to clear the matter...

(* Is that even a word? Isn't it "extradiegetic"?)
I think that this attempt to describe particular mechanics, or other processes of play, in rather abstract structural terms, with an expectation that doing so will then carve some significant boundaries of preferences for play, is hopeless.

I'm going to use a post of yours not too far upthread to elaborate my point:

I think it is kinda fair what @hawkeyefan said about knowledge rolls. I guess in my mind they're part quantum like that but also in large part how @Umbran described. It is abit fuzzy. But at least I generally don't know why I know something I know, nor can I recall where I learned it, so it working a bit weird in the game doesn't seem particularly noticeable. Quantum gear is more obvious, and quantum wizard towers even more so. I would call the latter two narrative but I wouldn't do so for knowledge rolls. But it indeed is somewhat imprecise and depends on how you interpret things.
There is no structural difference between a die roll that establishes in the past, an event occurred whereby I learned that Orcs of the Broken Bone worship Baghtru and a dice roll that establishes in the past, an event occurred whereby I learned that Evard's tower was in such-and-such a place.

Nor is there any structural difference between those sorts of rolls, and one that establishes that in the past, an event occurred whereby Evard's tower came to be in such-and-such a place.

Some posters might think there is a structural difference, because the knowledge involves the PC and the tower involves a NPC, but I think that thought won't be defensible under scrutiny. The PC having learned something implicates NPCs - there was an NPC teacher present, for instance, telling the PC <whatever it is that the PC learned>. And the tower one implicates the PC, as the presence of the tower is a causal factor in the PC's knowledge of it.

I don't think that trying to draw the distinction in terms of topic or substance will work either. It's true that the knowledge rolls focus on the topic of the PC having learned something in the past, while the tower roll focuses on the topic of a tower having been built in the past. But given that the proposition A knows that X entails X, the contrast breaks down under even modest analysis: if my PC accurately recalls some fact about Orcish cult practices, that entails a whole lot of setting stuff about Orcs and their cults.

The real issue of preference, as best I can tell, is about which participant - player or GM - gets to establish or "own" which bits of the fiction. So rather than worrying about "narrative" mechanics or "diegetic" mechanics, or even "metagame" mechanics, to me it would make more sense to directly talk about that real issue.

One obstacle to doing so is that it collides fairly immediately with the assertion that "The player decides what their PC thinks and feels". That statement, while it may be true as a generality, is literally false of a game in which (i) the PC is not particularly stupid and hence tends to believe true things, and (ii) the PC, given their background and training, probably believes some true things about Orcish cult practices, and (iii) the GM is the participant who is entitled to establish Orcs and their cults as elements of the fiction.

The reason for including (i) is to rule out the (surprisingly common) retort that the player is freed to have their PC believe false or outlandish things, but the GM will decide whether or not they are true. Once (i) is included, the interplay of (ii) and (iii) fairly clearly entail that it is the GM who will decide what the character whose player succeeds on a History/Religion/whatever check wil believe about Orcs and their cults.

Because of the weirdly shibbolethic status of "The player decides what their PC thinks and feels" I don't expect this post to generate wide uptake in this thread. Nevertheless, I think it explains why the attempt to analyse RPGing preferences in terms of abstract structural labels is not a very profitable one.
 

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Is it? Or is luck or divine favor or whatever we might imagine is represented by having inspiration, actually something that exists within the fantastical world which D&D portrays? This is yet ANOTHER thorn in the idea that we can define 'diegetic', it is going to be dependent on some fairly subtle questions about what is "fictionally real" or not! Given that these questions are not even generally addressed at any point formally by the participants in the game, I'm of the opinion that these are effectively unanswerable, or are simply dependent on one person's viewpoint.
In this specific instance, sure, but also there really isn't a reason why game couldn't take a stance on this. It could spell out what inspiration represents, if anything.

In my D&D game I don't use inspiration, but I use similar "divine favour" instead. At a temple or other suitable location characters can make sacrifices to gods or spirits, and they might grant them favours towards some particular task relating to their domain. They are represented by points that can be used like inspiration as long as it helps you on your stated goal. For example the characters made sacrifices to Vajurnu, the God of Journeys before embarking on an arduous trek across the desert, and gained some favour points to spend towards making that journey safely.

The mechanic is diegetic in a sense that the gods are real and the divine favour is real, and I even try to describe some glimpse of divine guidance when it is use, so the characters know it is working too. But it is still meta in a sense that it is the player who chooses when to use the reroll, even though their character is not making such a decision.
 

Well as I've said, I've lost track of what "diegetic" is supposed to mean in this context, given that it is not being used with its ordinary meaning of labelling an event in the performance that is experienced, or apt to be experienced, by the characters in the fiction.
Well, I sort of proposed a way of thinking about @clearstream's earlier Supervenient definition, but then I thought about it too much and read more of the thread, and basically there are so many different subjective factors involved that I have pretty much come to the conclusion that the term is, as you wisely said, meaningless. Instead we should probably just talk about what people find immersive or not-immersive in a subjective sense, and perhaps note some trends there, and leave it at that.
 

I think it's a fine point and a fuzzy one, but metacurrency mechanics can be diegetic as long as metacurrency is generated on the basis of character decisions-- the player choosing in the role of the character-- and is spent to enhance actions (or reactions) that the character performs.

Spending Momentum in Modiphius Conan is basically diegetic, because your character's just trying really hard because the task is really important, but it's earned non-diegetically by giving yourself acausal penalties to dice rolls. Fate Points in Fate Core can be diegetic or non-diegetic, and my table experience is that the majority of Invokes and Compels are actually diegetic, but the rules themselves are not interested in the difference.

To bring it back to my earlier example, it's the difference between the thief finding more gold because they find more of the available gold, and the thief finding more gold because there's more gold for him to find. Or whether or not the Warlord and Cleric's healing powers should have different target lines because... they're different powers that work differently.
 

Either way it still establishes now what the character has presumably known since some, probably undefined, time in the past. Thus they have, retroactively, always known this fact, and I believe @FrogReaver might note that this is problematic, as I recall he's kind of big on chronological integrity (IE if Joe had actually known beforehand that Trids can't eat Trix, he would have avoided the Trid lair entirely!).
Yes, but ideally you'd roll when the whole broader topic first becomes relevant to prevent the weirdness. Like you definitely should roll to know whether trids can eat trix way before you are deep in the trid lair.
 

Is it? Or is luck or divine favor or whatever we might imagine is represented by having inspiration, actually something that exists within the fantastical world which D&D portrays? This is yet ANOTHER thorn in the idea that we can define 'diegetic', it is going to be dependent on some fairly subtle questions about what is "fictionally real" or not! Given that these questions are not even generally addressed at any point formally by the participants in the game, I'm of the opinion that these are effectively unanswerable, or are simply dependent on one person's viewpoint.
Luck and divine favor may very well exist but the PC has no ability to call on them. So while I agree in principle I don’t agree with the specific example.
 

Either way it still establishes now what the character has presumably known since some, probably undefined, time in the past. Thus they have, retroactively, always known this fact, and I believe @FrogReaver might note that this is problematic, as I recall he's kind of big on chronological integrity (IE if Joe had actually known beforehand that Trids can't eat Trix, he would have avoided the Trid lair entirely!).
Indeed! Though it’s worth noting that in moment to moment play it’s much less a big deal to me. For example, had no issues with flashbacks while playing blades.
 

Yes, but ideally you'd roll when the whole broader topic first becomes relevant to prevent the weirdness. Like you definitely should roll to know whether trids can eat trix way before you are deep in the trid lair.
This too, though even in d&d it can be a risk. It’s probably why I favor campaigns that are set in a new world or where the world they are in is undergoing drastic unexplainable change.
 

As much as some people didn't like the term "narrative mechanic" I don't think bringing "diegetic" and "adiegetic"* into this much helped to clear the matter...

(* Is that even a word? Isn't it "extradiegetic"?)
Was worth a try. Makes as much sense to me as ‘narrative’ mechanics and provides a more clearly associated natural picture of what’s being discussed. I think it’s a better term. We at least are able to explore this one.

‘Narrative’ mechanics seems an even more mushy wushy term.
 

Either way it still establishes now what the character has presumably known since some, probably undefined, time in the past. Thus they have, retroactively, always known this fact, and I believe @FrogReaver might note that this is problematic, as I recall he's kind of big on chronological integrity (IE if Joe had actually known beforehand that Trids can't eat Trix, he would have avoided the Trid lair entirely!).

At its core, this is a "whataboutism" argument - using a supposed inconsistency to suggest that an argument is weak: "You are big on chronology? Well what about THIS CASE?!? Where's your issue with chronology now?"

Setting aside the fact that nobody has to be perfectly consistent for their position to be valid, the cases at hand are not comparable. For example:

It is quite possible to list all the objects that a character carries on their person on a given day.
It is quite impossible to list all the bits of knowledge that exists in a character's mind.
 

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