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D&D 5E Justin Alexander's review of Shattered Obelisk is pretty scathing

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
AC? As in that thing that was flat out limited to -10 for monsters and, with a couple of notable exceptions, was virtually never negative? Skills in 2e had a single DC - roll under your stat.
Although that roll-under could also be modified all over the place, depending on the situation. Many's the time, for example, when they're trying something quite difficult and I'll say they'll need to roll under half the stat.
Whether that was a NWP or a thieves' skill - didn't matter. Roll under and you succeed. At least in 2e, you could become a fairly competent thief at reasonably low levels - after all, did you really need to pump up your climb walls? Naw. You just dumped your 60 points into Move Silently, Hide in Shaddows, Find/Remove Traps and Open Locks and then continued to dump points into those four skills for the first few levels. Make sure you had a decent Dex (every 2e thief started with an 18 Dex right? ;) ) and maybe play a demi-human for the bonuses and you could have a reasonable chance of success for most skills by about third or fourth level. At least the ones that mattered anyway.
"What counts as a reasonable chance?" becomes the question here; because while pouring all those points into those few skills gives you a good chance at low levels, before long that 'good chance' becomes 100%, i.e. you can't fail. And the point isn't to have Thieves be or become insta-win buttons against locks and traps at any level.
And, you simply bypassed monster saves by using spells that didn't have saving throws. That was easy. Plus the fact that the monsters had so few HP, things like fireball or whatnot often either killed or seriously hurt baddies, even if they saved. These were editions where your ogre only had 16 or 17 HP. The math in AD&D is REALLY flat.
The hit point totals for large monsters in 1e are, in general, stupidly low; even more so if one is using UA. I long ago* started giving monsters the (approximate) same Constitution bonuses per hit die that characters get, which roughly doubled the hit points for high-Con things like Ogres, Giants, and so on.

* - as in, at least ten years before 3e made such things official.
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Monster HP not growing means PC damage cannot grow either. So I'm not seeing how this escapes the contradiction. You can't deal more damage, gain high stats, or sprawl out into more actions/traits. If all forms of upward growth are out, and lateral growth is nixed as power creep, what is left?
Fewer levels.

One can hope, can't one? :)
 

A Rogue with Reliable Talent passes DC 20 checks without fail as soon as level 13 (min roll 10, +5 stat, +5 Prof). A Redemption Paladin gets effective Reliable Talent with Persuasion. Any character with Expertise and +4 to the relevant stat passes a DC 20 check 50% of the time at level 5. Add in any other useful sources of bonus (Advantage, bless, etc.) and such "impossible" checks become routine for specialists and highly achievable for even non-specialists (e.g. Prof but not a main stat).

There's a reason Larian gave folks a bless necklace early on in BG3.
Yeah, working as intended. Heroes can regularly do things that I can't without breaking a sweat.

But there are DCs up to 30, for heroes to try and do "nearly impossible" things.


But note that characters only get better at skills that they are either proficient in, or are tied to their main ability score. If you automatically increased DCs with character level, then a character is going to be getting worse at a whole bunch of things as they level up.
 

I don't think pointing to classic adventures from the old days is a particularly good look. There are all sorts of thinks in the hobby from the old days that probably wasn't a very good look at the time and certainly isn't now.

And, I really need a quote from WotC to show where they said that devils aren't necessarily evil. Sorry, not going to take that one on faith.

Lastly, considering the VERY FIRST encounter of THIS MODULE is marauding goblins murdering people on the way into town, I'm really not sure what you're on about.
Tiefligs are hellspawn. They can be good. If that doesn’t satisfy, nothing will.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Why not?

In earlier editions, when monster damage didn't grow, character damage increased considerably - which meant your fighter types were very strong classes and not being outshone by the casters. Worked quite well actually.
Then you can't have weak monsters continuing to provide a challenge across levels. Characters mow through them far too fast. That was literally part of the selling point of "bounded accuracy" (hence why I so often say it has very little to do with either bounding anything OR accuracy). Especially because 5e gives characters so many attacks, so having ultra-powerful attacks makes them negate any difficulty from "weak" monsters in short order.

DC 20 is not "nearly impossible". A 75% chance of success is pretty much where you want it. Where's the problem?
It was a DC you provided--and I showed how it could be trivialized almost instantly, within the first five levels of the game. A DC 25 check--something you claim is essentially unknown in published adventures, though others have claimed otherwise--would be in your "roughly 66%" range for an expert with some buffs. At level 5.

Further, 5e itself calls 25 "very hard" and 30 "nearly impossible." Any specialist character (+5 stat, expertise) with some ordinary buffs (e.g. guidance, BI, or an Artificer's Flash of Genius; or various subclass-specific buffs spread throughout like Diviner Portents or Circle of Stars' Cosmic Omen; or any of various self-buffs like Divine Soul's Favor of the Gods, Battle Master maneuvers, or Fiend patron's Dark One's Own Luck) turn a DC 30 check into a regular occurence by level 13.

As far as data goes, bards according to the D&D Beyond stats were just above Druids as the least played class in the game. Tied with monks, sorcerers and rangers. 7% of characters. Which is about one bard in 4 (ish) tables. 75% of tables don't have a bard. (again, roughly before poeple start getting ultrapedantic about the math, which I can pretty much guarantee someone will.)
Yes, because we know for sure that all of those characters actually go to real tables to play, there's definitely not a million Fighters named Bob...except that we've actually heard that, yes, there's a ton of characters on D&D Beyond with names like "Fighter" and "Bob." That they are not as common on DDB is not, at all, the same as saying that they are ultra-rare.

I will point out there are other games that grow characters conservatively vertically but still have advancement. They do so horizontally, and that may not play well with a class system, but none the less its not an unsolvable problem.
Yes, and I specifically called out why horizontal growth is also verboten.

But if you're of the mindset that "the fiction tells me what the difficulty of this task/check ought to be and so that's where I'll set it", completely agnostic of any characters that might ever have to do this task, then I have no disagreement.

So for example: if your adventure contains a slippery cliff that in the fiction would be pretty tough to climb for those without much skill, you might set the DC of climbing it at, say, 19* - whether the adventure was intended for 1st-3rd level characters or for 14th-16th.

* - yes, 19. There is no reason whatsoever to limit DCs only to numbers divisible by 5.
Okay, but the problem is, you don't always pick your DCs three weeks in advance. You need to be able to improvise in response to unexpected player choices. (Isn't that kind of the point?)
Why is it good--laudable, even--for a DM to develop an internal idea of "oh, if you're trying to do that, in this context, the check should be X," but utterly unacceptable for a table to do the exact same thing, it just happens to be written down? Does the DM suddenly go from laudable to blameworthy if she writes down her intuitions about DCs?

I get this. And as long as that context doesn't include anything about the characters attempting the task, all is good.
How can it not? If you're improvising a check, how can it NOT include at least some kind of consideration for that?

The whole point of Page 42 is to be an improvisation aid. That is literally what it is for. If you don't need to improvise, the books have reams and reams of fixed DCs for all sorts of things (locks, social rolls for particular NPCs, perception checks to notice things, etc., etc. ad infinitum).

There's my issue. The fiction you're writing/designing
And if you're improvising? Because that's what this is for. That's what it was always for. It even explicitly says that that's what it's for.

While I agree with this to a fair extent, I still want those trivial challenges (e.g. the 2d6 fire trap) to mean something even at high level, even if it's only a minor inconvenience. This is why I don't like how 5e (and 4e, for that matter) have moved so far away from a long-term attrition model.
Just make the traps cost a Healing Surge rather than HP. People will start caring real quick about traps at that point!

If it helps, think of 4e HP vs surges as "vitality" vs "wounds." Set off a bad trap? You've taken a minor wound. Too many minor wounds, and you have nothing left to keep yourself going in combat. (Incidentally, this also gives the 4e DM a huge amount of control over attritional recovery, especially when coupled with the AEDU system: Differential resting becomes not only possible, but effortless. "You recover only half your surges and dailies when taking an extended rest in dangerous areas" or "you may regain your encounter powers or spend surges, but not both, during a short rest" are both valid, and IIRC the something like the former was used in 4e Dark Sun for anyone who tried to rest without sufficient food/water.)

Cage of names?

Care to elaborate? What's the cage of names?
Believing that you cannot play a warrior of grit and skill, whether fighting with mighty thews or quick strikes, unless you have a specific name written across the top of your character sheet. That is, being more attached to what things are called than what they do; being unable to accept something that functions in every way like what you desire because it has the wrong name, and only the wrong name, no other faults.

Hence: the cage of names. The name alone is more important than getting something made to do what people wish to do. If it has the wrong name, it cannot be right; and if it has the right name, it cannot be wrong. Both of which are ridiculous, but convincing people of that is like pulling teeth.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Fewer levels.

One can hope, can't one? :)
I mean, one can hope. But it ain't happening.

Even if it does, doesn't that basically just admit that there is no real room for growth? It would seem to be conceding the point. People generally want to feel like they've actually grown and improved, like their time spent adventuring has been one that made them stronger. It's kind of the greatest draw of roleplaying games, and why RPG mechanics have infected almost every other genre at this point. (And I use the word "infected" very intentionally--many games there are that should not have RPG mechanics, but do because "see number go up" has deeply-rooted motivation.)
 

"A hydra is a cool D&D monster" isn't enough reason to add it to a dungeon? Oh, what has the world come to? ;)
The thing is, there's no harm in adding MORE to the reason. You only need one or two lines of evocative text to tie it together and that small effort has a big impact on the overall feel of the dungeon. Why are we advocating for the absolute bare minimum when just the minimum can greatly improve products in subtle ways?

More importantly, I don't get a lot of criticisms in this thread. Why is it so bad to want WotC to try harder on their adventures and other content? We're not asking for a massive ecological essay on the dungeon, just one or two lines on how the hydra is eating itself or finding nourishment elsewhere. If I know it's eating itself, now I'm like hmmm, I can feed the hydra something else and maybe avoid combat. Or if I know that its eating something else, I can attack its food source and cause it to attack itself.

To say that there's no reason to put this stuff and that WotC just shouldn't is just so weird to me. Again, it's just one or two lines for the hydra. Yeah, you have to do that throughout the product now, but that makes an overall STRONGER product. They could even release a "DLC" via DND Beyond article for people who want it!

People on this forum just do not care for progression or advancement in form and technique at all.
 

Then maybe those folks should take a step and get some perspective. Maybe take a more pragmatic view of a product than just feeling like the name isn’t good enough?
They advertised the product in interviews literally saying it was like Ocean's 11, which it isn't. Maybe the people writing these adventures should take a step up and get some perspective. Maybe take a more pragmatic view of advertising then just feeling like saying it's something it isn't is necessary to sell something.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Then you can't have weak monsters continuing to provide a challenge across levels. Characters mow through them far too fast. That was literally part of the selling point of "bounded accuracy" (hence why I so often say it has very little to do with either bounding anything OR accuracy). Especially because 5e gives characters so many attacks, so having ultra-powerful attacks makes them negate any difficulty from "weak" monsters in short order.


It was a DC you provided--and I showed how it could be trivialized almost instantly, within the first five levels of the game. A DC 25 check--something you claim is essentially unknown in published adventures, though others have claimed otherwise--would be in your "roughly 66%" range for an expert with some buffs. At level 5.

Further, 5e itself calls 25 "very hard" and 30 "nearly impossible." Any specialist character (+5 stat, expertise) with some ordinary buffs (e.g. guidance, BI, or an Artificer's Flash of Genius; or various subclass-specific buffs spread throughout like Diviner Portents or Circle of Stars' Cosmic Omen; or any of various self-buffs like Divine Soul's Favor of the Gods, Battle Master maneuvers, or Fiend patron's Dark One's Own Luck) turn a DC 30 check into a regular occurence by level 13.


Yes, because we know for sure that all of those characters actually go to real tables to play, there's definitely not a million Fighters named Bob...except that we've actually heard that, yes, there's a ton of characters on D&D Beyond with names like "Fighter" and "Bob." That they are not as common on DDB is not, at all, the same as saying that they are ultra-rare.


Yes, and I specifically called out why horizontal growth is also verboten.


Okay, but the problem is, you don't always pick your DCs three weeks in advance. You need to be able to improvise in response to unexpected player choices. (Isn't that kind of the point?)
Why is it good--laudable, even--for a DM to develop an internal idea of "oh, if you're trying to do that, in this context, the check should be X," but utterly unacceptable for a table to do the exact same thing, it just happens to be written down? Does the DM suddenly go from laudable to blameworthy if she writes down her intuitions about DCs?


How can it not? If you're improvising a check, how can it NOT include at least some kind of consideration for that?

The whole point of Page 42 is to be an improvisation aid. That is literally what it is for. If you don't need to improvise, the books have reams and reams of fixed DCs for all sorts of things (locks, social rolls for particular NPCs, perception checks to notice things, etc., etc. ad infinitum).


And if you're improvising? Because that's what this is for. That's what it was always for. It even explicitly says that that's what it's for.


Just make the traps cost a Healing Surge rather than HP. People will start caring real quick about traps at that point!

If it helps, think of 4e HP vs surges as "vitality" vs "wounds." Set off a bad trap? You've taken a minor wound. Too many minor wounds, and you have nothing left to keep yourself going in combat. (Incidentally, this also gives the 4e DM a huge amount of control over attritional recovery, especially when coupled with the AEDU system: Differential resting becomes not only possible, but effortless. "You recover only half your surges and dailies when taking an extended rest in dangerous areas" or "you may regain your encounter powers or spend surges, but not both, during a short rest" are both valid, and IIRC the something like the former was used in 4e Dark Sun for anyone who tried to rest without sufficient food/water.)


Believing that you cannot play a warrior of grit and skill, whether fighting with mighty thews or quick strikes, unless you have a specific name written across the top of your character sheet. That is, being more attached to what things are called than what they do; being unable to accept something that functions in every way like what you desire because it has the wrong name, and only the wrong name, no other faults.

Hence: the cage of names. The name alone is more important than getting something made to do what people wish to do. If it has the wrong name, it cannot be right; and if it has the right name, it cannot be wrong. Both of which are ridiculous, but convincing people of that is like pulling teeth.
I believe the idea is that even when improvising, the DC is based on your adjudication of the difficulty of the task, not the skill of the PC attempting it. No reason that philosophy would be different if you're improvising.
 

Sadly, too many. And it is but one cage among many. The cage of names, for example, is a particularly pernicious one.
Oh, boy! I really feel you. Back in 4e, I had a cool concept for a lightly armed military scout, which I built as a rogue. This character was consistent with the DM’s worldbuilding, as the starting location had just finished a war, so I figured an irregular military veteran trying their hand at adventuring would be interesting. I made this clear to the DM.

The adventure starts with my character (and only my character) breaking into a place on a quest for the Thieves ‘ guild, getting caught so all other PCs principally know my character as a thief, and the climax of the adventure revolving around my character reading thieves’ cant.

That’s not the only example, it’s just the most glaring.
 

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