"Oddities" in fantasy settings - the case against "consistency"

So I don't really think it as "rules are physics" sense, not really. Rules are abstraction and approximation, but I still feel one should apply such approximation consistently.
I totally agree that rules should apply fairly and consistently to the participants.
But certainly that creativity applies to character creation too? So why not just add those fantastical deviations that might result unique NPCs into PC creation rules as well?
There could be MANY reasons not to do that. EGG didn't have rules for fighters casting fireballs for various reasons related to archetype distinctions, some desire for balance (at least to the degree that no one class would be 'the best' in all ways all the time), etc. He certainly had other agendas as well, like a desire for PCs to be 'good guys' and thus heavily restricting player's access to 'evil archetypes' (though the inclusion of things like the assassin class do subvert that to a degree). He also wanted the milieu to be very human-centric and envisioned it as an analog of Medieval Europe, so his rules disfavor demi-human PCs in various ways (which in some cases can also be attributed to 'not best all the time').

Other games most certainly have similar things going on.
Can you give an example of what you mean? How is applying rules consistently bad? Why would you engage any more via rules if they're consistently applied compared to them being inconsistently applied? Certainly knowing that fiction X is always accompanied by a rule Y will just remove the meta pondering of what rule will today be assigned to X?
Well, the ENTIRE FKR is all about this! 'living rulebooks' and such. The whole point is that no set of mechanics can ever really produce very realistic results. I mean, FK itself, all the way back in its days as a military training practice was predicated on this very thing. Rules often produce silly contrary results, or simply place artificial limits on what can be injected into the fiction. D&D's falling rules have nothing to say about broken legs, yet I expect that's one of the very most common results of a fall! If one cares about this sort of verisimilitude then one must question the overuse of systematized rules application.
 

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What you've written about Gollum here, along with what you've quoted from Luke Crane in the OP, caused me to imagine the following exchange.

GM: In this game, you all play a chorus of angels who've each been granted authority over a certain aspect of reality by a deity who wields the power of creation. He has assigned you with the task of creating a vision of the world which he will then imbue with reality, filling the void which now stands empty.

Player: How about my character has some part of the gifts of all the other angels and goes out into the void to search for the power of creation for himself so he can make his own world?

GM: :love:
Ea!
 

Well, the ENTIRE FKR is all about this! 'living rulebooks' and such. The whole point is that no set of mechanics can ever really produce very realistic results. I mean, FK itself, all the way back in its days as a military training practice was predicated on this very thing. Rules often produce silly contrary results, or simply place artificial limits on what can be injected into the fiction. D&D's falling rules have nothing to say about broken legs, yet I expect that's one of the very most common results of a fall! If one cares about this sort of verisimilitude then one must question the overuse of systematized rules application.

I am not at all advocating that everything should have codified rules. Rulings are perfectly fine, especially for unusual situations. My point is that if we have rules, they should consistently be linked to fictional elements. If PC elves have dark vision of 60 feet, then NPC elves probably should too, and it should work in the same way.

As for rulings, one should endeavour to consistent with them too. If a situation was ruled once in certain way, then there should be a very good reason to rule in a different way next time the similar situation comes up.
 

What you've written about Gollum here, along with what you've quoted from Luke Crane in the OP, caused me to imagine the following exchange.

GM: In this game, you all play a chorus of angels who've each been granted authority over a certain aspect of reality by a deity who wields the power of creation. He has assigned you with the task of creating a vision of the world which he will then imbue with reality, filling the void which now stands empty.

Player: How about my character has some part of the gifts of all the other angels and goes out into the void to search for the power of creation for himself so he can make his own world?

GM: :love:
What you've written about that Angel here cause me to imagine the following exchange.

Player: How about my character has some part of the gifts of all the other angels and goes out into the void to search for the power of creation for himself so he can make his own world?

GM: Your angel character flies out into the void all alone to do just that, now, please roll up a new character for this campaign that is interested in the campaign premise and working as part of the group.
 

I am not at all advocating that everything should have codified rules. Rulings are perfectly fine, especially for unusual situations. My point is that if we have rules, they should consistently be linked to fictional elements. If PC elves have dark vision of 60 feet, then NPC elves probably should too, and it should work in the same way.

As for rulings, one should endeavour to consistent with them too. If a situation was ruled once in certain way, then there should be a very good reason to rule in a different way next time the similar situation comes up.
I don't necessarily disagree with this. I mean, there is a level of consistency of world that is required for players to reason about the fiction. So, your example of elvish vision could be seen in this light, but also in the light of the fictional explanation for the PC's ability simply being "it is a normal elvish biological trait" and desiring to honor that fiction. Of course there are 100 possible reasons you could invent to subvert it as well, but back to consistency as a basis for reasoning and then you probably want to only subvert THAT in specific ways where you have some goal in mind.

Same with rulings on 'how things work' or 'how things are handled', as doing it differently every time becomes arbitrary and burdensome, and opens up the GM or whomever/whatever to questions of bias. Still, I think we do court the danger of the 'tyranny of small minds' by weighing consistency TOO highly, or applying it everywhere when it may not serve much purpose in some domains.
 

I think the issue people are pointing to is the inconsistency. The idea of complete parity was something I only really observed with WOTC. It happened in AD&D, but it just wasn't the same degree of expectation in my experience (I think everyone felt the class options, the race options, those were just things that presented a sliver of the full range of possibilities, and it was out of a desire for simplicity, balance, gamabiltiy, etc). I do think however that AD&D had both. It was before my time as a gamer (I came into RPG in 1986) but as a fan of the Ravenloft line, my understanding was giving a vampire class levels was something of a twist and an innovation; at the very least, I got the feeling this isn't what most people expected prior to Ravenloft. And there is definitely something to be said for starting out a creature as if it were a PC. But I think the game really bogs down, and it starts to strain issues like setting consistency when there is too full a commitment to this (like you had in 3rd edition), or when this is seen as somehow representing the physics of the setting
Indeed, 3e took this concept way over the top.

Not every NPC has to be classed. You can have an ordinary baker with mundane stats and no class abilities whatsoever, no problem. Most of the general population would fall into this category.

But - and here's where consistency comes in - if an NPC is classed then IMO it should follow the same mechanical structure as do PCs. And sure, you can have "non-adventuring" classes mostly intended for NPCs, but they'd be open to players if someone really really wanted to go totally sub-optimal and play one (and the write-ups for those classes would be player-facing). Further, all NPCs should have the inherent potential to be or become classed; having a class ins't restricted to just the chosen few.

And note that by "NPC" here, I specifically mean a non-player character of a PC-playable species. Non-playable creatures can follow whatever mechanics and rules they like for their abilities; though if a monster is classed (e.g. a Vampire MU) then IMO the class part should map to the PC version of that class.
 

I read that note as pertaining only to the Attack Matrix for Fighters etc., clarifying how NPCs of various races do or don't use the table, so standard MM elves, dwarves (both hill and mountain), and gnomes all attack as 1st-level fighters (THAC0 20) regardless of their actual HD and regardless of whether they are considered equivalent to 1st-level fighters in some other respect. I.e. they might still be considered as "unclassed" individuals. Whereas, unclassed humans and halflings attack using the "0" column.

I was thinking of this passage from Swords & Spells (1976), p 6:
NOTE: Scale figures representing human/humanoid (and highly intelligent) creatures of 1st level or above or with 1+1 hit dice are always considered as having elite guard status. For example, the following types of troops are classified as elite guard status:
Veterans (1st level fighters)​
Elves​
Hobgoblins​
Gnolls​

This ties in with the Loyalty Base Modifiers given on DMG, p 36. Under "Training Or Status Level" are the following:

trained regulars ... +10%​
elite, sub-officers, minor officials/expert hirelings ... +20%​
guards, officers, or major officials/henchmen ... +30%​
My thinking is the distinction between hirelings and henchmen is relevant. I.e. henchmen are classed individuals while hirelings are not. Thus, 1+1 HD MM demi-humans, like elves and mountain dwarves (but not hill dwarves), not only attack as 1st-level fighters on the attack matrix, but they also have a status/training classification that is the equivalent of that of a classed character of at least 1st level. Because MM hill dwarves lack that status due to their inferior HD is why I use the term "level 0" to refer to them, by which I mean "unclassed".
I'm not sure there's really a 'rule', but overall it is pretty messy, actually. So, in Chainmail there were basically grades of forces, light foot, heavy foot, armored foot, and then light, medium, and heavy horse. Furthermore peasant/levy is a sort of subcategory of light foot (even worse). In D&D this got translated into hit dice, with 'peasants' being basically 1d6-1 hit points, and then 'normal soldiers' (veterans) having 1d6, and thus the 'heavy' types had to be 1d6+1. Fighting Men then got a d8 for hit points instead of d6+1 for whatever reason. The Monster Manual is an unreliable guide to ANYTHING because it was written BEFORE 1e AD&D, and thus we don't even know what a 'hit die' meant, it was defined later!

So, is an AD&D 1e goblin basically a 0 level figure? Yeah, kinda. In the case of a dwarf we have no way of knowing, but AS ORIGINALLY ENVISAGED a 'peasant' has a 1d6 hit points, maybe with a -1 but we don't know for sure as D&D doesn't have ordinary people stats. At some point during the development of the Monster Manual hit dice were redefined to a 1d8 (presumably this marks the point in Gary's development of the PHB rules where Fighters got a 1d10 hit die). It is widely accepted that at this point 'zero level humans' (IE peasants) have a 1d6 still, but that's kind of an assumption AFAIK. I don't think the DMG or MM actually define 'zero level' as a thing. There's a section called 'typical inhabitants' on p88 of the DMG which lists hit points for various sorts of 'people', but mentions nothing about race, just that they are 'non-classed'. The combat tables have a column under the fighter matrix for level 0, and here is the only place where '0 level' is defined (in a footnote which is where your 'humans and halflings only' comes from). This same footnote explains that dwarves, elves, and gnomes are 'never below first level' but what this means, especially in terms of the 'ordinary inhabitants' rules, is never explained.
I have a copy of Chainmail, and have read most of it. I've never owned or read Swords & Spells. And I've never fully tried to comprehend the translation of these various elements - HD, and associated combatant/training status - from system to system.

I do know that AD&D presents multiple options/frameworks, without explaining how to choose between them. Many of the "Men" in the Monster Manual have 1d6 hp, which is statistically close to Goblins' 1d8-1 (average 3.5 vs 3.635). Halflings also have 1d6 hp. Presumably these are the 0-level characters the DM refers to: but whether they attack on the 0-level column or the less than 1-1 HD column doesn't matter, as those two columns are the same. But "Men" or Halflings vs Goblins have a hard time of it: while Goblins have nearly identical average hp, they have a +1 to attack (due to attacking on the 1-1 HD column, which is the same as the 1st level fighter column).

(In Moldvay Basic Halflings, like Goblins, have 1-1 HD. And in Expert the "Men" have 1 HD. I remember being struck at the time, when moving from B/X to AD&D, that the "Men" were debuffed in the latter system.)

Then there's the p 88 table in the DMG, which gives sex-based hp. An active but not labouring male peasant has 1d4+1 hp, which has the same average as 1d6. A male labourer has 1d6+1 (the same average as 1 HD) but gets stuck on the 0-level attack chart.

Then there is the DMG information about mercenary soldiers and man-at-arms. According to p 30 of the DMG, a man-at-arms has 4-7 (1d4 +3) hp, which is the same average as 1d10; but attacks as 0-level rather than as a 1st level fighter. A 1st level sergeant, on the other hand, has the same average hp though a wider spread, and a better attack bonus. The chart on p 100 of the DMG notes that a man-at-arms has +1 to STR and +3 to CON, although whether that means they get CON modifiers to their hp is left quite ambiguous. But it does say that they have a minimum of 4 hp, though what die is supposed to be rolled is left unstated on that particular page. (For completeness, the p 100 chart gives labourers a +1 to +3 to STR.)

It's also not really clear why men-at-arms are around 1.5 times as resilient as bandits, brigands, buccaneers and pirates, but have the same chance to hit. Nor why they are similarly more robust than Goblins, but have a lesser chance to hit. Nor why Goblins have the same chance to hit as sergeants, although they are slightly easier to cut down with a single blow.

There are other points of arbitrariness as well. The monster attack chart in the DMG says that "Any plus [to HD] above +3 equals another hit die, ie 6+6 equals 7 hit dice". There is a similar, though not identical, note beneath the saving throw table that says that, for monsters,

Further die levels are added for each increment of four additional points. Therefore, for the purpose of determining saving throw levels, 1+1 though 1+4 hit dice becomes 2, 1+5 through 1+8 becomes 3, 2+1 through 2+4 also becomes 3, 2+5 through 2+8 becomes 4, etc.​

So a 6+6 HD Troll is considered 7 HD for attack purposes (making no difference, as there is a single column for 6-7+) and 8 HD/levels for saving throw purposes. A 7+7 HD Type V demon is considered 8 HD for attack purposes (stepping up one column), and 9 HD/levels for saving throw purposes. And a 8+8 Type VI demon is considered 9 HD for attack purposes (making no difference, as there is a single column for 8-9+) and 10 HD/levels for saving throw purposes.

Having the Troll as either 7 or 8 HD, the Type V demon as 9 HD, and the Type V demon as 10 HD would make almost no difference to the game, but eliminate the confusion of pluses to hit dice, and make those table footnotes redundant. The 1+1 category seems rather arbitrary (and Swords & Spells apparently eliminates it, grouping Hobgoblins with Gnolls if I've read @Hriston's post correctly). And things like black, brown and cave bears as 3+3, 5+5 and 6+6 rather than just 4, 6 and 7 or 8 are arbitrary. Or making a basilisk 6+1 HD - what is the point of that extra +1 except to create confusion as to which saving throw numbers to use?

To be honest, it's all a bit of a mess. It's hard to take seriously that any of this minutiae is a "simulation" of anything: the differences in hp and to hit numbers of these various peasants, man-at-arms, bandits, sergeants, Goblins, etc all seem rather arbitrary, and to reflect various pathways out of Chainmail and into the AD&D framework, none of which was every fully thought out and some of which (like the p 88 "Typical Inhabitants" chart) reflect a growing concern with "simulationism" that has not been integrated into other elements of the system.

If you mean "there's lots of weird, inconsistent rules which make it hard to state anything categorically about AD&D" then I'd agree, but I don't think it invalidates the wider point. YMMV.

And I don't disagree with this either. I'm pointing out that some people like a predictable, shared mechanical model for their PCs and NPCs. And that such a model is frequently - albeit inconsistently - employed in AD&D.

Honestly, I'm having trouble understanding why stating the case for NPCs often using the same mechanisms as PCs in AD&D is receiving such pushback. It seems fairly self-evident to me.
Well, see above for the basis for my view.

In the end, all we have is that NPCs and monsters, like PCs, have attack numbers and saving throws determined on a chart, and have a certain number of HD (of some or other size) rolled to determine hit points. There is some loose correlation between attack numbers, saving throws and HD but it is not precise and in some cases is not even straightforward to work out for that particular NPC or creature.

My point is that if we have rules, they should consistently be linked to fictional elements. If PC elves have dark vision of 60 feet, then NPC elves probably should too, and it should work in the same way.
You are pointing to a rule, here, that is in very close contact with the fiction: dark vision to 60 feet is an in-fiction property of Elves. This is quite different from things like HD, hp, saving throw numbers, classes, levels etc.

But even in this sort of case, there is precedent for non-uniformity. For instance, while Drow have the in-fiction property of being resistant to magic, PC Drow lose that ability (with a bit of patter to explain why - they are no longer exposed to the "strange radiations" of their under-earth homelands). If we wanted to, some similar sort of story could be told to explain why PC Elves don't have dark vision as typical Elves do.

(EDIT: @AbdulAlhazred beat me to this point.)

In my current D&D game, I basically assume that most powerful people basically have class levels. It helps me to gauge on the fly what their capabilities might be even if I had not made full datasheets for them. If I know that the eldri shaman is a sixth level shepherd druid, or that the leader of the Corpsecrafter's Guild is a 13th level necromancer then I already have rough ballpark for their powers. It is not exact, and small deviations are fine by me, but I find these sort of rough guideline helpful and they also set limits to me as a GM. I can't just suddenly decide that this friendly NPC can totally cast a helpful spell the PCs need, because I have already established that they're of a level that has no access to it.
On this, I agree with @Bedrockgames: it produces weird or constraining outcomes, such as no one being able to work miracles unless they are also a mighty warrior.

This relates back to @AbdulAlhazred's comment about whether or not the pirate MU can wield a cutlass: AD&D most strikingly, but many other versions of D&D too, simply don't tell us which parts of the PC build rules represent in-fiction "lifepath-y" stuff (eg no one can wield the magic of raising the dead, before they have first learned the simpler art of curing light wounds) and which are meta-game constraints intended to secure game balance, variation and niche-protection among PC options, etc.
 

Indeed, 3e took this concept way over the top.

Not every NPC has to be classed. You can have an ordinary baker with mundane stats and no class abilities whatsoever, no problem. Most of the general population would fall into this category.

But - and here's where consistency comes in - if an NPC is classed then IMO it should follow the same mechanical structure as do PCs. And sure, you can have "non-adventuring" classes mostly intended for NPCs, but they'd be open to players if someone really really wanted to go totally sub-optimal and play one (and the write-ups for those classes would be player-facing). Further, all NPCs should have the inherent potential to be or become classed; having a class ins't restricted to just the chosen few.

I think it is fine to do it this way, but I don't see as much on ought here as you do. Classing is a convenient mechanic for making player characters, and can work for NPCs. Most NPCs are going to follow this approach. But I don't think they have to follow all the same character creation parameters a PC does (because the parameters for player characters are about balance). For example, I don't see an issue with simply assigning stats that make sense for the character you are creating. I also don't even have a problem with putting a stat above what a PC can roll, if there is an in setting reasons why. The point pemerton made in the OP, which again disagreed with in many ways, I think makes a very sound point about the need for there to be creativity around this stuff (he is simply arguing that creativity should extend to the players, which in some campaigns, some groups, some games, is going work well). But I am saying, given that my general preference is for games where the players don't have this kind of power to side step the parameters of character creation and premise, it is still very important that the system not then go and also constrain the GM in the act of designing NPCs, adventures, etc. Once in a while the GM needs to make an exceptional halfling NPC, like a Gollum character. And yes the game may have existing paths to achieve something like that, but I think the more creative freedom the GM has to fully realize the concept, the better (for me as long as it isn't a crazy violation of the setting or cosmology, you need that sort of thing).

Also there is another point here that is important: ease of use. The GM shouldn't have to generate a fully fleshed out NPC using the class system every time the players meet someone new. It is much easier sometimes to have shorthand for this sort of thing rather than make every NPC have to dot each I and cross every T.

And note that by "NPC" here, I specifically mean a non-player character of a PC-playable species. Non-playable creatures can follow whatever mechanics and rules they like for their abilities; though if a monster is classed (e.g. a Vampire MU) then IMO the class part should map to the PC version of that class.

But why should I have to stick to classing the monster. I often do it, but I don't understand why I can'y completely ignore that in favor of something else that makes sense or saves me time. I get that Strahd did that and it worked well. It is one tool in the toolbox, but I can also just take the vampire stat and say "he is a skilled warrior and magic user so I am going to adjust this and that, increase HP and give him some spells". It is both time consuming to level every monster like this (again that is one of the reasons things like templates really bothered me in 3E---it is additional work) and it constrains that creative aspect to it. Again, I don't see the classes as mapping to real things in the setting. They are broad types meant to make character creation easier and workable. But I always assume there are thieves in the world who don't exactly match a thief who is designed like a PC thief (there has to be, or the world would basically just be a video game)
 

Not every NPC has to be classed. You can have an ordinary baker with mundane stats and no class abilities whatsoever, no problem. Most of the general population would fall into this category.

But - and here's where consistency comes in - if an NPC is classed then IMO it should follow the same mechanical structure as do PCs.

<snip>

And note that by "NPC" here, I specifically mean a non-player character of a PC-playable species. Non-playable creatures can follow whatever mechanics and rules they like for their abilities; though if a monster is classed (e.g. a Vampire MU) then IMO the class part should map to the PC version of that class.
I don't really follow this. I mean, what does being "classed" mean in the fiction?

And if there can be "non playable" beings in the world, why can't one of them be (say) a human who is able to cast spells while wearing armour?

Why can't a god bestow on some (non-player) worshipper the ability to do such-and-such unique miraculous thing?

Etc.

What you're describing doesn't seem about consistency in the fiction at all, but rather some sort of meta-game requirement.
 

I always assume there are thieves in the world who don't exactly match a thief who is designed like a PC thief
This one is especially interesting, because in AD&D all thief abilities progress uniformly, whereas in 2nd ed D&D the player can choose (within certain parameters) how to allocate points to abilities. Does this mean that the two rulesets are describing different fictional worlds? To me, that would be a strange conclusion to draw!
 

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