Why PCs should be competent, or "I got a lot of past in my past"

[Micah Sweet]

I think D&D calls for too many checks. A person can jump a certain distance on a 10, but it's highly unrealistic and highly unsatisfactory for someone to ever roll a 9 or 11. (For example.) As a multiply-disabled, uneducated and untrained noncombatant, I expect that characters meant to represent action heroes should be able to do more in terms of normal human athleticism and "common sense" lore knowledge than I can.

It's not a matter of how often they succeed or fail at extraordinary tasks. It's a matter of ordinary tasks that are too difficult or even unattemptable to the majority of characters.

This assumes that the characters are meant to represent action heroes, and not just people motivated toward an adventuring life.

 

[Celebrim]

First of all, I don't believe that characters like the ones in Firefly (for the most part) could possibly by considered 1st level at the beginning of the series, if for no other reason than that parts of their backstories would absolutely have leveled them if they had been done on-camera (ie., in-game).

All we know is that Mal and Zoe fought one losing battle. We know that Jayne participated in a failed heist. We know Simon is a young medical student, and his sister has escaped as a child from a human enhancement program. Kaylee is a skilled engineer who has never left home. None of that is incompatible with being 1st level. Wash is a skilled pilot whose been doing it long enough to have a good reputation, but normally we don't think of doing professional skills alone as what levels you up so usually "I've been doing a job a while" is perfectly acceptable backstory. Indeed, aside from being a pilot, Wash seems to be one of the least leveled up characters on the ship. Those are very typical backstories for first level characters. The backstories aren't what implies higher than first level, but rather the fact that we see them overcome other characters sometimes with ease and panache. It's that ease and panache that is the aesthetic some people really want to have immediately. The basics of the backstories though are well within what you could have for a 1st level character and implied off screen adventures actually important to the plot are relatively rare.

The only character with a backstory that suggests he can't be a 1st level character is Shephard Book, who could well be a mysterious NPC.

And in any event, by the "Gandalf is a 5th level wizard" argument that we should always accept the lowest level that explains what we actually see in the story, no one in the crew is more than 3rd level. Wash and Kaylee might well be henchmen NPCs with Expert class. Shephard and Inara are probably run by the DM. And yes, what happens in the series suggests Mal, River and Jayne are above 1st level or that we are using a system that assumes starting PCs are a couple levels of competence above "normal people", but the set up itself is perfectly valid for 1st level characters with no important changes in backstory.

Secondly, all of this assumes that "telling a story" is what you're trying to do. I see TTRPGs more as depicting people in an imaginary world.

I don't see how those things contradict. People in the real world do things and have stories to tell as well. If you depict people in an imaginary world well, you'll get some sort of story. If you depict those people in an imaginary world in intense situations where they have to make choices, you'll get probably a pretty exciting story.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, I remember a Critical Role episode in which the party goes to an acrobatics show, and Mercer makes three checks for the performers to see how the show goes, the third failing badly enough to result in an injury.

Can you imagine being a professional performer putting on nightly shows, when you have around a 1 in 4 chance each night of being injured sufficiently to be out of commission for weeks? You'd never be able to earn a living.

Perhaps he was taking into account the fact that it's impossible for anyone in 5e to be out of commission for any amount of time between "overnight" and "forever"?

 

[Micah Sweet]

It would be neat if there was a superhero game where the characters were just learning their powers and were not completely competent in them yet.

Like New Mutants or Runaways? I like it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ditto for Level Up. I read in another thread on Level Up that the Fighter is much like 5e's Battle Master subclass thanks to the increasing number of Combat Traditions in this RPG. What makes the Level Up Fighter different from 5e is that it's the Battle Master plus a subclass.

Well, Level Up isn't perfect, just my favorite version of 5e.

 

[Micah Sweet]

All we know is that Mal and Zoe fought one losing battle. We know that Jayne participated in a failed heist. We know Simon is a young medical student, and his sister has escaped as a child from a human enhancement program. Kaylee is a skilled engineer who has never left home. None of that is incompatible with being 1st level. Hoban is a skilled pilot whose been doing it long enough to have a good reputation, but normally we don't think of doing professional skills alone as what levels you up so usually "I've been doing a job a while" is perfectly acceptable backstory. Indeed, aside from being a pilot, Hoban seems to be one of the least leveled up characters on the ship. Those are very typical backstories for first level characters. The backstories aren't what implies higher than first level, but rather the fact that we see them overcome other characters sometimes with ease and panache. It's that ease and panache that is the aesthetic some people really want to have immediately. The basics of the backstories though are well within what you could have for a 1st level character and implied off screen adventures actually important to the plot are relatively rare.

The only character with a backstory that suggests he can't be a 1st level character is Shephard Book, who could well be a mysterious NPC.

And in any event, by the "Gandalf is a 5th level wizard" argument that we should always accept the lowest level that explains what we actually see in the story, no one in the crew is more than 3rd level. Wash and Kaylee might well be henchmen NPCs with Expert class. Shephard and Inara are probably run by the DM. And yes, what happens in the series suggests Mal, River and Jayne are above 1st level or that we are using a system that assumes starting PCs are a couple levels of competence above "normal people", but the set up itself is perfectly valid for 1st level characters with no important changes in backstory.

pquote]Secondly, all of this assumes that "telling a story" is what you're trying to do. I see TTRPGs more as depicting people in an imaginary world.

I don't see how those things contradict. People in the real world do things and have stories to tell as well. If you depict people in an imaginary world well, you'll get some sort of story. If you depict those people in an imaginary world in intense situations where they have to make choices, you'll get probably a pretty exciting story.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, but the story you'll get is emergent. That quite different from the "i want to tell the story of my character" attitude I'm seeing implied here.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It would be neat if there was a superhero game where the characters were just learning their powers and were not completely competent in them yet.

There are several that have that as an option. After all, many are build point systems (often with caps) so its not hard to adjust the points and caps.

 

[MarkB]

It would be neat if there was a superhero game where the characters were just learning their powers and were not completely competent in them yet.

Masks very much has that vibe, as I understand it.

 

[Corinnguard]

Like New Mutants or Runaways? I like it.

Kind of. What you often don't see in the comics is the super learning to control their powers before they learn of the various ways they could express those powers. In this one story I read years ago, a cryokinetic by the name of Glacier spent a month learning how to rein in his powers while doing completely ordinary things like taking a shower, having a meal or giving someone else a hug. Only when he was able to take a shower (without freezing the pipes and causing them to burst), eat a meal (without turning it into a frozen dinner or a slushie) or hug someone (without freezing them to death) was he able to think of all the creative ways he could use his cryokinesis.

So sometimes it's nice to see how a character became competent after spending a lot of time and effort getting there.

 

[Clint_L]

Level 1 characters are already plenty heroic by the standards of average folks. Heck, some of them already know magic. And they have significant heroic potential.