How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

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Inferring from a denial that all X is Y to a denial that any X is Y.

I'm not sure how to do inverted Es and As on these forums, so in what follows my As are the wrong way up (ie uninverted):
It is a fallacy to infer from ~(AxAy(Px => Qx)) to AxAy(Px => ~Qx).

In this particular case, the fallacious inference appears to be from @hawkeyefan's It is not the case that, if any bit of information is obtained by the players, it must come from the GM as part of the adjudication of play to If any bit of information is obtained by the players, it must not be the case that it comes from the GM as part of the adjudication of play. Because without that fallacious inference, there would be no reason to suppose that hawkeyefan would feel obliged to hand over the secret information prior to play at the request of the player.
When I asked you as to which logical fallacy I was guilty of committing, I was actually expecting you to give me the name of said logical fallacy. The name of the logical fallacy would have been more helpful to me than what you brought up here. Because I could then have looked it up elsewhere and see if it actually applied to my earlier comment about a player asking @hawkeyefan for information on a BBEG at the start of gameplay.

It would also have been nice and more helpful if the inference you gave here didn't resemble a philosophical version of Schrodinger's Cat. The information is obtained from the DM during gameplay or it's not obtained from the DM during gameplay is what I think you are trying to say here.

So what kind of information is obtained from the DM during gameplay?
Narrative descriptions of:
1.The NPCs the party meets during their adventure. A really good DM will not only describe what they look like, they'll even try to role-play the NPC in order to give the players an idea as to what kind of person they are like. My DM has done this when my party has interacted with a particular NPC within an adventure, both past and present.
2. Monsters and monster encounters through the use of narrative foreshadowing.
3. The current location of the party.
4. A successful skill check or a check failure.

What kind of information is not obtained from the DM during gameplay?
1. Information from a fellow player about something only their character would know. This could be a character's backstory that was told to the rest of the party during a moment of downtime. It could be something they learned as a part of the Background they had before becoming an adventurer.
2. Information gained by the player through critical thinking, and shared to the rest of the party.

There is probably more to either one that I don't know about.
 

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What is being automatically successful, if nothing is is being attempted? How can there be success without an attempt?
The attempt is reflexive. Just like the PC can be successful at defending themselves from a sword blow or dodging a fireball without the player having to declare every time that they try to block or dodge.

Reflexive perception and memory are for the benefit for the players. If a ninja tries to ambush a PC, there will be a roll to resolve whether the PC detects them in time to not be caught flat footed, even though the player had not declared "looking for danger" action in case of ninjas they were unaware of being around.
 

The GM as Storyteller was at least prevalent enough during Second Edition's reign to support a magazine wholly devoted to the concept (White Wolf Magazine) and to get a whole category in the Six Cultures of Play. It's also a sizeable chunk of the commentary on these boards (adventure paths, getting players back on track, fudging, nudging, etc.) and has been since I started following them (when they were still Eric Noah's 3rd Edition News boards).

Anecdotally it's also the play culture I originally hail from (being a Planescape/Vampire kid) way back when and has been the predominant play culture I encountered both in Michigan and Colorado. The indie and OSR scenes are becoming larger locally in the last 5 years or so, but most of what I have seen has been games where the social mores revolve around biting a GM's adventure hooks and casting a lot of Find Plot.

My in person play group often plays games that are an admixture of player driven goals (using player defined milestones) and GM plots (which we talk about openly). I tend to run more Story Now and Social Crawl oriented games though.
 
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* Then, this section on Motivation (which might have been a section that actually gives rise to player protagonism in which the players' rich themes and motivation actually give rise to the shape and trajectories of play) goes on to talk about how the "tailored motivations are ones that you (the GM) have specifically designed" (you are giving the players the motivations to engage with your content...the players aren't giving you, the GM, their own motivations to generate particular content). Lets look at those bullet points:

1) No attachment mercenaries interested in gold!

2) Fetch Quest!

3) Deus Ex Machina of the content they just resolved!

4) This one gets the closest to possibly engaging an actual player motivation that is generated by a player but we surely don't know (and given the above text, why would we suddenly interpret an inversion of paradigm?). Note that they don't (a) put Tordek's brother specifically at stake, (b) we have no idea if this is a consequential NPC that the player brought into play and made actual connections with (but we definitely know there is no system tech/PC build tech facilitating this because the game doesn't have it) or just NPC001 generically skinned as kin and giving a Fetch Quest (see 2), and (c) note they didn't say "Hometown"...so how do we know Dumadan isn't just DWARFCITY001 because dwarfey-trope where if the player doesn't jump at it they'll get metagame derision for "you're not playing your dwarf right!" Social pressure to play their character the right way is definitely not "control!"

GM has exclusive authorship over all content (from situation to setting to main plot to auxiliary content and even authoring PC motivation to facilitate engagement with their prep…and then they have a massive roll in action resolution mediation on top of this) of consequence and the result is overwhelming control over the shape and trajectory of play.
Rorschach test is right. Here we are in a section explicitly about tailored motivations with examples based on information from and about the characters and their current situations and yet you're using these as examples of the DM authoring PC motivation rather than responding to them. The only one that's not obviously based on the PCs and what the DM knows about them is #3. But I guess up is down and down is up...
 

First, it should be noted that this game engine does not possess (a) mechanical lever/widget (like an essential piece of PC build that richly encodes novel theme or gives specific expression to motivation which constrains the GMs content generation accordingly while simultaneously rewarding you for pursuing your player-authored themes/motivations) nor (b) a procedure-based vehicle for players to flag theme/motivation/relations that the GM should be challenging during play (like a Session Zero or a principle of 'ask questions and use the answers"). That is a crucial piece.

Now lets take a look:

* "If you want to get the PCs involved in whatever you (the GM) have designed for them to do"...<give them...motivation...and they will do what you want them to do>
You've got that backwards. What you posted isn't about giving them motivation to do something. It's about testing the motivations that the PCs gave to themselves.

The first example tests the player established motivation of greed. Will they risk their lives to overthrow an evil powerful enough to threaten an entire kingdom for mere gold? Or will they refuse and go somewhere else?

The second example tests the player established motivation of dedication to their comrade. Will they risk their own lives to see that dedication through, knowing that they are weak(wererats are a threat and gargoyles killed one of them)? Or will they give up the quest and bury Mialee, giving her a beautiful funeral with lots of flowers?

The third example tests the player established motivation of self-preservation. Will they preserve their existence by removing the powerful vampire threat? Or will they preserve their existence another way, say by fleeing far to the south where the vampire will never find them?

The fourth example tests the player established motivation(s) of loyalty to family and/or the PC established motivation to help those in dire need. Will they risk their lives, possibly for free(also testing the greed motivation) to help something that has threatened an entire dwarven city? Or will they turn it down?

The text you show incorrectly says that the DM is tailoring motivations. He is not. In every example the DM is simply tailoring tests of those motivations that the DM already knows the players have established for their PCs.
* Then, this section on Motivation (which might have been a section that actually gives rise to player protagonism in which the players' rich themes and motivation actually give rise to the shape and trajectories of play) goes on to talk about how the "tailored motivations are ones that you (the GM) have specifically designed" (you are giving the players the motivations to engage with your content...the players aren't giving you, the GM, their own motivations to generate particular content). Lets look at those bullet points:

1) No attachment mercenaries interested in gold!

2) Fetch Quest!

3) Deus Ex Machina of the content they just resolved!

4) This one gets the closest to possibly engaging an actual player motivation that is generated by a player but we surely don't know (and given the above text, why would we suddenly interpret an inversion of paradigm?). Note that they don't (a) put Tordek's brother specifically at stake, (b) we have no idea if this is a consequential NPC that the player brought into play and made actual connections with (but we definitely know there is no system tech/PC build tech facilitating this because the game doesn't have it) or just NPC001 generically skinned as kin and giving a Fetch Quest (see 2), and (c) note they didn't say "Hometown"...so how do we know Dumadan isn't just DWARFCITY001 because dwarfey-trope where if the player doesn't jump at it they'll get metagame derision for "you're not playing your dwarf right!" Social pressure to play their character the right way is definitely not "control!"
It really is a section on player protagonism. It's not very strongly written, and says it's the opposite of that, but all four examples test player established motivations.

It's poorly written, but if the DM follows those examples and tests things that he knows motivates the PCs, player protagonism is established. This happens even if the DM is trying to get them to do what he wants. How? Because the section is about him creating those tests as the thing that he wants to happen.

The DM can't control the outcome of those tests of player established motivation. The section doesn't talk about forcing them to undertake saving the kingdom out of greed. Nor does it say to keep coming up with test after test after test until they conform to what he wants. It only talks about testing the player established motivations as incentive for them to do something.
GM has exclusive authorship over all content (from situation to setting to main plot to auxiliary content and even authoring PC motivation to facilitate engagement with their prep…and then they have a massive roll in action resolution mediation on top of this) of consequence and the result is overwhelming control over the shape and trajectory of play.
NO! At no point in any example has the DM authored ANY motivation for the PCs. He is authoring tests of motivations that the players have established. They are already motivated by gold. They are already motivated to bring their companion back. They are already motivated by self-preservation. They are already motivated by family and/or compassion. The DM established none of the motivations in the examples.

As I said above, what it tells the DM to do, "Tailored motivations..." is at odds with every example given, "Tests of player established motivations." The designers essentially misspoke and really meant "Tailored tests of motivation."
 

Rorschach test is right. Here we are in a section explicitly about tailored motivations with examples based on information from and about the characters and their current situations and yet you're using these as examples of the DM authoring PC motivation rather than responding to them. The only one that's not obviously based on the PCs and what the DM knows about them is #3. But I guess up is down and down is up...

I mean, the section says it’s about finding ways to motivate them “to do what you want them to do”.
 

Rorschach test is right. Here we are in a section explicitly about tailored motivations with examples based on information from and about the characters and their current situations and yet you're using these as examples of the DM authoring PC motivation rather than responding to them. The only one that's not obviously based on the PCs and what the DM knows about them is #3. But I guess up is down and down is up...
No. That's simply not correct. Each and every example took a player established motivation that the DM knew about the PCs and tailored tests of those motivations. Nothing in any of those examples involved force on the outcome of those tests. The DM authored those tests, yes. But at no point in any one of the examples did he actually tailor a motivation for even a single PC.
 

I mean, the section says it’s about finding ways to motivate them “to do what you want them to do”.
Yep. It's poorly written and at direct odds with what the examples show, which are tests of prior player established motivations for their PCs. When every single example shows a test, you have to throw out the badly written words prior to those examples. Not once did the DM in those examples actually create a motivation.
 

OK. The world contains flying dragons. Hence "reality" as far as it pertains to biodynamics, the density of air, and perhaps universal gravitation more generally, doesn't obtain.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Its easy enough to have "physics operates except where magic happens". The idea magic is an extraphysical element that operates outside of the normal laws of such is not exactly unknown. You can question, depending on how common magic is, how useful the distinction is, but in that context the fact that the dragon doesn't care about those laws of physics does not make them irrelevant, it just makes there two distinct sets that sometimes interact.
 

I mean, the section says it’s about finding ways to motivate them “to do what you want them to do”.
Players are quite capable of coming up with what motivates their character to go out and adventure. It's called Destiny. ;)

This is the Coming of Age Destiny from Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition:

COMING OF AGE​

Not all heroes have a clear path ahead of them. Some are still finding their footing and are dreaming big all the same: of adventure, the open road, a chance to prove one’s worth, and having a life worth living.


Special Feature: Finding Yourself. Sometimes it takes a journey to find yourself. You may exchange this destiny for another destiny at any time.
Source of Inspiration: Yes to Adventure. You draw inspiration from setting out with adventure in front of you. You gain inspiration whenever you achieve a personal milestone.
Join a new guild or organization, travel somewhere new and far from home, accept a new major quest or mission, change worldviews and grow as a person.
Inspiration Feature: Ready to Learn. You haven’t had training in everything but you’re determined to give it your all anyway. As a bonus action you may spend your inspiration to gain proficiency with a weapon, armor, skill, or tool for the next hour.


FULFILLING YOUR DESTINY​

You fulfill your Coming of Age destiny when you complete the hero’s journey.
Return to your homeland after defeating an immense threat, become the leader of an organization you were lowly in, learn the truth of life through great hardship.
Fulfillment Feature: Returned. With the journey complete, you finally know who you are—or rather who you became along the way. When you gain this feature, you immediately choose the fulfillment feature from another destiny. You gain the chosen fulfillment feature, which replaces this one.


Table: Coming of Age Destiny
d6 Motivation

1 Room to Grow: You’ve been too cooped up and want to explore.
2 Prove Yourself: You want to show what you’re really worth.
3 Curiosity: Mystery knocks at your door and you’re desperate to answer.
4 Boredom: You crave adventure and escape from monotony.
5 Your Role Model: You’re determined to follow in the footsteps of your hero.
6 Young Love: Adventuring is sure to impress the object of your affections.

Destinies | Level Up Level Up's Adventurers' Guide has about 20 Destinies for the players to choose from.
 

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