"If no one else tries, you are the best" Okay, sure.... but that doesn't mean you are doing any good. Because all it takes is a single other person to try to throw you aside.
Sure, but that PC gave up something else to do it.
There is no reason I should not be able to build a PC to outdo another class at what that class is supposed to be good at.
And, yeah, talking about the Fighter base class tends to focus on the fighter base class. I am not going to assume feats, because they are optional and the fighter might want other feats.
Ok. When talking about RAW, I am going to assume people will use all available RAW options to fix problems they have in the game.
It is optional whether my fighter chooses to use a Longbow or a Blowgun. If he uses a blowgun his damage is terrible that is not a problem with the blowgun. It is a problem in that I am chooosing not to use a better weapon.
I am going to always assume all classes have access to feats when discussing potential class builds.
Besides, most of the feats you asked for are giving spells, which kind of defeats the purpose.
If you want to cast that spell it does not defeat the purpose. It does exactly what you want to do/
If want to cast suggestion I should logically have to get the suggestion spell to do it (which is not available as a feat but that is an aside).
I am not assuming a specific subclass, because that only helps if you happen to play that subclass.
If you choose to play that subclass or choose to switch to it from another subclass at the level it becomes important. For example if I want suggestion on my battlemaster, when he becomes level 7 I switch to Eldritch Knight and pick up Suggestion.
Everything is a choice, but when saying a class can't do something you need to consider all the available choices IMO.
Also, other than taking spells as an Eldritch Knight, you are only looking at Battlemaster manuevers (which those skill manuevers are hard to justify.
Ok a couple things. Battlemaster maneuvers are available to all fighters through a fighting style and avaialable to all characters through a feat, so it does not need to cut into combat options at all (other than the feat or fighting style selection).
They are only useful some of the time, and cut into the Battlemaster's combat options which are useful far more often.), Cavalier... gaining proficiency?, Banneret Expertise (Note: Banneret is considered one of the worst fighter subclasses because of it s other abilities), Samurai gaining profiency and then getting a boost with elegant Courtier at level 7.
Banneret is a very weak subclass, but it can be built into a very strong social character. Not as strong as a Bard, Rogue or Ranger optimized for that, but better than just about anything else.
A Banneret with a 14/15 Charisma, 14 Wisdom and Superior Technique-commanding presence is going to outdo a Wizard by a wide margin in terms of social skills. Pick up martial adept and ASIs or feats to boost Charisma and you can hang with almost anyone.
Banneret is also on the fighter chassis, which means you are getting extra ASIs and more attacks and you can wear heavy armor and you have d10 hit dice. These other classes don't get all these things automatically.
Yes. Do you want to be good at persuasion or not?So, I guess, the Samurai at level 7 is pretty good at Persuasion. That's it.
The Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer, Paladin... all of their subclasses are just as good as the Samurai, until level 7, and some of them (the Bard) wreck it, and exceed it even at level 7.
Only the Bard is as better than a Samaurai who optimizes for this because the Samarai has access to Commanding presence and two more feats than those other classes.
The bard is better hands down.
Really? What subclasses is that wizard using? Oh, it doesn't matter? Okay what feats are they using?
I have actually played a Wizard similar to this a lot. I have never went all out melee, I alway dump constitution to 10 and usually use a race to get some proficiencies, but I am still selling out on melee as far as spell selection.
If you are are actually optimizing for melee on point buy you would play a Bladesinger Half Elf. S8 D17 C16 I16 W8 CH8
You would get Elf Weapon training and take 4 of Whip, Rapier, Scimitar, Short Sword, Hand Crossbow. You would take whichever one you did not take at start at 2nd level.
You would take Elven Accuracy at 4th level, dex ASI 8th, Metamagic Adpet-Quicken Spell at 12th, Intelligence ASIs 16th and 19th level.
Oh, it doesn't matter? Okay, well they did end up locking in, what, five spells? Let's say 10 spells devoted to melee.
At 10th level the following are the important spells you have prepared:
False Life
Mage Armor (unless you found magic studded)
Shield
Protection from Evil and good
Silvery Barbs
Absorb Elements
Blur
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Steel Wind Strike
Those are the spells you will actually use. You would have others prepared, probably Shadowblade, Blink and Dispel Magic, but these would rarely be used.
At 10th level, you are typically going to use all your 4th level slots and some 3rd level slots and some of your 5th level slots for False Life.
Contingency is at 11th level, so the wizard with no defined feats, no defined subclass, only has a mere 16 other spells they can take. Oh, and 4 cantrips
5 cantrips at 10th level, not 4
Cantrips would be Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, Blade Ward, Sword Burst and Chill Touch. You could replace Sword Burst with something else like Mage Hand, but if you were optimizing for melee you would't. The rest of those are pretty much required if you want to be able to better optimized martials.
So how many exploration spells can they get with that?
If you are optimized for melee none.
Let's say 8 exploration spells, things like Fly, mage hand, light, find familiar, that make them really good at exploration
Find Familiar because it is a ritual.
Not fly, you can't afford to concentrate on it in combat and at 10th level most of those spell slots are needed for False Life. You could give up Blink, Shadowblade or Dispel Magic to put it on the list for non-combat use, but those situational spells are highly relevant in the situations where you want to use them and the slot to cast it is still a high cost.
Later on, at 11th level you can fly for a minute at a time with Tasha's Otherwordly Guise when it comes online as there is less cost to using that because it is a combat spell replacing something like Blur.
, and let's say they take some social spells too, things like Minor Illusion, Comprehend Language, Disguise Self, Borrowed Knowledge, Enhance ability.
You do not have room to prepare or cast most of those spells if you want to be optimized for melee and truely dominate that pillar.
You also don't have the slots for them if you are in hard contact 6+ fights a day. You are burning a lot of slots on Shield and on False Life between fights. Then you are burning some more on PEG, Blur, Absorb Elements, Misty Step and Silvery Barbs during fights.
Comprehend Languages as a ritual is ok of course.
And of course you still probably have some room for some AOE and ranged spells, right?
Not if you are optimizing for melee. Your high level slots are mostly being used for False Life.
The Character I discribe above is generally the best melee build in the game at 10th level IMO. Better than any Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger or any other.
You can do things different and give up a little melee power for a nice payoff elsewhere and when I play a melee Wizard that is what I do. But if you do that you will not be as good at melee as the character described above.
So, let's just take the basics. THe Wizard is better at melee than the fighter with those spells and build choices you left vague. They can also cast Borrowed Knowledge and Enhance Ability to get 1 hour of profiency and advantage on any check they want, make them a diviner wizard so they can swap a bad die roll out.
No they are not better than a fighter if they are using slots on borrowed knowlege. They just aren't. They need a ton of slots for shield and False Life and if they are using those slots for other things they are weak.
If they are a diviner they can only make 1 attack a turn and will suck at melee.
They have a familiar and maybe even Arcane eye for remote scouting,
Yes familiar, no Arcane Eye if they want to be awesome at melee.
the ability to bridge language gaps,
The ability to read and understand languages, provided a 10 minute notice. Not the ability to speak any.
probably invisibility, AOEs, access to light and remotely able to interact with the environment to avoid traps...
No, No, No, No
How is the fighter better at them than social and exploration stuff again? Proficiency and a high score?
Yes. A Much higher score. The Wizard has an 8.
No they aren't. Casters brutalize combat. They need to build to handle melee combat, sure, but they have strong ranged options with a single cantrip, and then they simply need things like Hold Person, Sleep, Hypnotic Pattern, Hideous Laughter.
They do not brutilize combat. Fighters do. Except Sleep all the things you mention have a save and none are encounter enders.
Hold Person is extremely powerful if the enemy targeted is a humanoid but it is one enemy and they save every single turn. If you happen to be fighting a BBEG and that BBEG is a humanoid without LR it is huge, but the main reason it is huge is cause melee characters are getting crits on him for the round or two he is paralyzed. In a large encounter it is not nearly as powerful.
Sleep is extremely powerful if the enemy is not immune and they have low enough hit points to land it, but most enemies aren't and when they are the battle is nearly over. It is also hard to use without causing freindly fire.
HP is on of the most overated spells in the game. If DMs play smart HP is weak. The enemies simply wake up their allies. As long as 1 enemy saves it should never be more than 1 lost action per bad guy and damage automatically ends it. If you use HP on 10 Orcs at 5th level about 7 should fail statistically and those 7 should lose one attack each (maybe 2 for a couple of them if you run individual initiative and the turn order is not in their favor). That is powerful but not overwhelming. If you use it on a lone BBEG he is incapacitated until someone damages him, which is probably the next allies turn. Fear is the real OP spell at 3rd level .... as long as enemies are not immune to frightened, and that is actually an encounter ender most of the time.
Seriously, I had a DM who almost wanted to ban Hideous Laughter, it is a level 1 spell and if it lands the enemy is completely incapable of acting.
They save every turn and every time they take damage and they can still move (crawling).
I use THL a lot and it is a good spell, but it is situational. You can't use it well on a single target because he is going to save fast as your allies will all be damaging him. It is a cast it on one guy while the party concentrates on the other kind of spell and it is good at that. But it is also a 1st level spell that does not upcast, so you are competing with Mage Armor, and Shield (and possibly Silvery Barbs). Run out of 1st level slots and start using THL at 2nd level and it is extremely weak.
I think Cause Fear is generally a lot more powerful in combat. It doesn't take away actions like THL but it does restrict movement more effectively, it lasts longer and it upcasts.
I think Dissonant Whispers is better than either of those on a 1st level slot. Cast it at someone in melee with your allies, he fails and runs away taking AOOs and then being out of position and it is not concentration. If I am looking for offense out of a Wizard with 1st level slots I am looking at ways to get this one (most commonly Fey Touched).
Sure, they can save with advantage if they take damage, but you can just point and take a powerful foe off the board. Blindness can ruin an opponent. Have you seen someone set off a synaptic static dealing fireball damage while also debuffing the enemy with a -1d6 to all attacks, checks and concentration saves? Which by the way, stacks with BAne that is a -1d4 to all attacks, saves and checks.
I've seen all those things. Synaptic Static is great and it is an intelligence save. By the time you are getting it though a -1d6 on attacks is not overwhelming. A nice bonus sure if they fail the save but not an encounter ender.
I personally was told by a DM once that a fight would have led to a TPK for my entire party... except I was playing an artificer, and I cast web.
I had this happen many, many times. But I have enemies beat good spells too.
I would have had a TPK except my Ranger used Beguiling Twist on a White Dragon after he failed to frighten me. I made my save against Dragon Fear, he didn't when I twisted back on him.
We would have had a TPK another time except my fighter decimated a Lich we were up against. Every other member of my party was paralyzed (I made my save, maybe because of indomitable). The Lich who already had forsight on himself then used time stop to buff himself with Haste and something other spell (can't remember). On my turn I cast dispel Magic (Drow High Magic), knocking out Haste, making him lose a turn and also taking down forsight as well with a good Charisma Check. Then I went action surge Booming Balde, War Magic Attack and did the same next turn.
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