D&D General What is the right amount of Classes for Dungeons and Dragons?

[Mind of tempest]

And psions, whether in 2e, 3.0, or 3.5 are clearly and unequivocally spellcasters. I don't mind the idea that psionicists should be different from spellcasters. But this is a spell and they didn't even bother to file many of the serial numbers off, just calling it something else and making it use a power point rather than a slot system with numbers that directly translate.

Levitate, Psionic​

Psychoportation​

Level: Nomad 2, psion/wilder 2, psychic warrior 2​

Display: Olfactory​

Manifesting Time: 1 standard action​

Range: Personal or close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)​

Target: You or one willing creature or one object (total weight up to 100 lb./level)​

Duration: 10 min./level (D)​

Saving Throw: None​

Power Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)​

Power Points: 3​

​

As the levitate spell, except as noted here.​

Special​

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When a psion, wilder, or a psychic warrior manifests this power, the target is the manifester (not a willing creature or an object).​

Which is why Psions have always always been a disappointment. The only thing that made Psions more loved than the Aberrant Mind was 70 pages of custom crafted spells in 2e and 3.5.

You mean Detect Magic, and Dominate Person. What you're describing could just as easily be a bard.

Is it possible to have psionic powers that are not spells? Yes. The Soulknife manages it - and GURPS does it well, differentiating between psionics and magic. But the Psion? That's a spellcaster with access to different spells.

Both Storm Herald Barbarians and Storm Soul Sorcerers channel the storm. But only one of them is a spellcaster. The Psion is an implementation of a psychic as a spellcaster. And for all psionics aren't magic neither is the storm. This doesn't prevent Storm Soul Sorcerers from casting.

The Psion meanwhile is very specifically "You have a weird mind and you cast these spells" type of deal. The only difference is that the wizard has a spell book and a familiar and the psion has their mind, a psicrystal, and different spells.

Meanwhile D&D's sorcerer is very specifically "for weird subclass specific reasons you can cast these spells" type of deal. The Aberrant Mind Sorcerer fits that perfectly (give or take a Far Realm overtone).

Indeed. Tassadar is not a Psion. He's psionic. A Soulknife would just use Psychic Whispers.

A Psion would meanwhile not cast "Thoughttalk" but cast Mindlink or even Suggestion (Psionic).

And all the Psion has ever been is a sorcerer with the serial numbers filed off that uses psionics to cast spells.

I like psionicists who don't cast spells. I like the Soulknife who is an actual, genuine, non-casting psychic. But stop pretending that Psions didn't cast spells just because they cast Teleportation Circle, Psionic rather than Teleportation Circle please.

And the big difference between 5e psionics and 3.X/2e psionics? Yes there are a number of grumblers who want Psions with their 70 pages of spells and nothing else will do. But in practice Psionics are far more common at the tables now than they ever have been. And don't get banned unlike the Psionic splatbooks.

counterpoint the sorcerer being the dumping ground of every other idea is insane and bad for it, we need another none cha caster to prevent its domination.
also when was the last time anyone took psionic seriously in sci-fi outside of through backs or science fantasy?
people ban stuff for dumb reasons all the time the people banning it likely still ban the damn sorcerer as well.

why should we not give it the space of a full class what is the harm?

 

[Neonchameleon]

see, this just feels to me like an ignorance or lack of respect for the base premise of what psionics is meant to be, it's explicitly NOT meant to just be refluffed magic, it is the power created by a distinct LACK of magic but you design psionics with the magic mechanics and SURPRISE! nobody wants to play the representation that entirely missed the fundamental point of the concept because you don't see anything past the surface level and reducing all supernatural stuff to 'magic'.

And all this is why Psions were clarinetists, simultaneously sucking and blowing. And only with the death of the Psion have we actually had decent psionics in D&D. All Psions ever were were magic users with a coat of paint that didn't always even cover up enough spells to not have Knock (Psionic) as a psion thing.

Meanwhile the Soulknife and the Psi Warrior are imperfect - but they are actually not using spell mechanics. I'd prefer something more like GURPS psions (or failing that PF kineticists).

 

[Corinnguard]

I like psionicists who don't cast spells. I like the Soulknife who is an actual, genuine, non-casting psychic.

My favorite non-casting psychic would have to be the Elementalist class from Purple Martin Games' MoAR: Complete. This is Level Up's take on PF1's Kineticist class (which can be found in PF1's Occult Adventures)

 

[Neonchameleon]

counterpoint the sorcerer being the dumping ground of every other idea is insane and bad for it,

Is it? That is to ask is it the dumping ground, is it insane, and is it bad for the sorcerer?

we need another none cha caster to prevent its domination.

So you openly admit that what you want is another caster? I'll address you to those claiming the psion wasn't a caster.

And the sorcerer is not dominating. They aren't even the only Charisma caster psionic option in D&D 5e. The OneD&D Great Old One Warlock is a genuine psionicist as well - and bards have always been pretty liminally psychic.

people ban stuff for dumb reasons all the time the people banning it likely still ban the damn sorcerer as well.

why should we not give it the space of a full class what is the harm?

Are we maximalising the classes here?

 

[TiQuinn]

Are we maximalising the classes here?

Why do people assume minimizing the classes is the end-all, be-all?

 

[Neonchameleon]

from a pure practical stand point dnd does not need to exist, extra options are unlikely to make dnd worse.

I disagree here. One of the strengths of 5e has been keeping the bloat under control, keeping it approachable.

I still say the psion should be taking the party role of the cleric so you can cut god out of your adventures

I don't see too many psionic healers?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Why do people assume minimizing the classes is the end-all, be-all?

Only a few people advocate for three or four classes. Or even going classless. But that's the minimalist perspective.

I consider keeping the number of classes (and feats and spells) under control to be a good thing - which isn't the same as going right back to magic user/fighter/thief. If something can be done by subclasses then do it there. There needs to be a good case why a new class is needed, which doesn't make it impossible.

 

[Mecheon]

And psions, whether in 2e, 3.0, or 3.5 are clearly and unequivocally spellcasters. I don't mind the idea that psionicists should be different from spellcasters. But this is a spell and they didn't even bother to file many of the serial numbers off, just calling it something else and making it use a power point rather than a slot system with numbers that directly translate.

Everything in 3E is spells. It ain't a Wizard spell, that's the point.

When we break this game down to hard tack everything is a "spell", because all a "spell" is "Roll a dice and a thing happens". The game not having proper ways to mechanically represent something doesn't mean we squish everything together. That could just as easily read "Stick of Dynamite. You throw a stick of Dynamite, do 3d6 damage to all targets in range" and its still going to look the exact same, despite that being something you can do IRL (please do not actually throw sticks of dynamite, i've been watching theme park videos lately and you'd be surprised how many have "The old mine is rigged to blow!" as a plot point)

Which is why Psions have always always been a disappointment. The only thing that made Psions more loved than the Aberrant Mind was 70 pages of custom crafted spells in 2e and 3.5.

I'm a flavour man well above a mechanics man. The flavor needs to be "You are not casting spells in the way a wizard is". I'm simple to satisfy

You mean Detect Magic, and Dominate Person. What you're describing could just as easily be a bard.

Is it possible to have psionic powers that are not spells? Yes. The Soulknife manages it - and GURPS does it well, differentiating between psionics and magic. But the Psion? That's a spellcaster with access to different spells.

Both Storm Herald Barbarians and Storm Soul Sorcerers channel the storm. But only one of them is a spellcaster. The Psion is an implementation of a psychic as a spellcaster. And for all psionics aren't magic neither is the storm. This doesn't prevent Storm Soul Sorcerers from casting.

Reading thoughts a passive thing from concentration and nothing like Detect Magic. Its, y'know, the whole Professor X thing. From X Men. Or Satori from Touhou.

Suer it is! Its called: You say they're not spells on them. Just like how it says on the wizard they are spells. Maybe it costs something different. But, if we're equating to "The way D&D mechanically represents things can only represent spells" then we're doomed because that aformentioned system is how any sort of damage-rider would be represented. Heck, that's how monster abilities are represented, and they sure aren't spells.

The Psion meanwhile is very specifically "You have a weird mind and you cast these spells" type of deal. The only difference is that the wizard has a spell book and a familiar and the psion has their mind, a psicrystal, and different spells.

Meanwhile D&D's sorcerer is very specifically "for weird subclass specific reasons you can cast these spells" type of deal. The Aberrant Mind Sorcerer fits that perfectly (give or take a Far Realm overtone).

Meanwhile in other threads the sorcerer is being torn to shreds for not doing enough to define its concept, so we can see how well that's working for most people. Plus we're in a thread were people have speficially acted as if you can shove everything into Magic User if it vague looks like it casts magic

Indeed. Tassadar is not a Psion. He's psionic. A Soulknife would just use Psychic Whispers.

A Psion would meanwhile not cast "Thoughttalk" but cast Mindlink or even Suggestion (Psionic).

Psion is just a shortened version of psionic, let's be honest. He's a High Templar regardless. The Dark Templar is Zeratul

And all the Psion has ever been is a sorcerer with the serial numbers filed off that uses psionics to cast spells.

I like psionicists who don't cast spells. I like the Soulknife who is an actual, genuine, non-casting psychic. But stop pretending that Psions didn't cast spells just because they cast Teleportation Circle, Psionic rather than Teleportation Circle please.

And the big difference between 5e psionics and 3.X/2e psionics? Yes there are a number of grumblers who want Psions with their 70 pages of spells and nothing else will do. But in practice Psionics are far more common at the tables now than they ever have been. And don't get banned unlike the Psionic splatbooks.

The psion pre-dates the sorcerer. It casts psionic spells, which aren't arcane spells. Therein is the problem. The cleric's a spellcaster who casts divine spells, after all

They don't cast the things wizards cast because those are wizard spells. Sure, mechanically might get the same result, but fictionally they're not. They're not going through a book and dredging knowledge that way, they're using the power of their mind. So long as that's the thing, there will be an expectation they're treated differently because that's how they're presented. Mechanically the only difference between weapons is what type of dice you roll, but fictionally you'd treat a sledgehammer and a rapier as two very different things with very different uses

5E is the biggest edition of the game so far. By definition, any class that's in this version of the game has the most players they've ever had. Regardless though, if psionics weren't popular to have their 70 pages of psionic spells, then stuff like Kibble's psion wouldn't exist

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It occurs to me that I should probably mention which classes I think count.

So here's that post.

Here's the list, with explanations/thematics, if that would be more relevant to you. Again, first the existing ones; both lists lightly edited from the original post.

Spoiler

• Artificer, the engineer-as-magician, with shades of other professional fields (blacksmith, surgeon, sapper, etc.), where craft-ken is magic
• Barbarian, the warrior-of-passion, whether it be warp-spasms or altered states of consciousness or spirit-indwelling.
• Bard, the artist-as-magician, whether that art be music, dance, oratory, fencing, whatever--the magic of the fine and performing arts.
• Cleric, the devotee-as-magician, servant and shepherd both, remembering that a shepherd's crook was both tool and weapon.
• Druid, (these days) merging shapeshifter-as-magician and geomancer-as-magician, calling on the magic of land and beast.
• Fighter, the warrior-of-skill, who transcends the limits of IRL mundane soldiers through grit and tenacity.
• Monk, the warrior-of-discipline, who transcends limits through enlightenment and practiced form, often semi-spiritual in nature.
• Paladin, the warrior-of-devotion, power manifest through purity, both in keeping promises and in inspiring others by their example.
• Ranger, the warrior-of-the-hunt, who straddles the line between man and beast, city and wilderness, tools and nature.
• Rogue, the warrior-of-trickery, who knows the ways of not being struck or spotted, and of striking and seeing, of locks and keys.
• Sorcerer, the inheritor-as-magician, who has magic power not because it was sought, but because it is part of who they are.
• Warlock, the bargainer-as-magician, who represents the power of Faustian bargains and clever swindlers cheating evil powers.
• Wizard, the scientist-as-magician, who represents pure knowledge unlocking ultimate power, the deep secrets of reality.

And here's the ones I think should exist. Not in any particular order, this is just my spitballed order.

Spoiler

• Assassin, the warrior-of-shadow, whose skill with all the subtle ways to stalk (and un-alive) someone transcends mortal limits.
• Warlord, the warrior-of-tactics, who transcends limits by cooperating with others rather than purely through her own mettle.
• Swordmage, the warrior-as-magician, for whom swordplay is magic, and magic is swordplay (or other weapons), one and inseparable.
• Shaman, the spiritualist-as-magician, who straddles the line between material and spirit, the bridge connecting these realms.
• Psion (etc.), the telepath-as-magician, who draws on ESP, the paranormal, occult "science" etc. to bend the rules of reality in their favor.
• Alchemist, the chemist-as-magician, who uses magical ingredients and concoctions to control the world...or themselves.
• Avenger, the warrior-of-zeal, whose absolute focus is both shield and sword against their enemies, who executes the turncoat apostate.
• Warden, the warrior-of-the-land, who wears Nature's power like a cloak, and wreaks Her wrath where he walks.
• Summoner, the overseer-as-magician, whose magic lies in getting other beings to use magic for her.
• Invoker, the emissary-as-magician, who calls down disaster upon the foes of the faith, Elijah calling fire down against the altar of Baal.
• "Machinist" (not my fav name), the warrior-of-technology, who uses guns, machines, and tools to overcome their foes.

Some of these things are closer together than others, that's just how archetypes work. It's not a science, we don't carve up the spectrum into perfectly equal chunks. Colors work the same way.

Note, also, that all of these have existed in either 3.5e, 4e, or PF1e--and usually at least two of those three.

And, finally...as I said upthread, classes are not made for all people. I get that some folks have zero or even negative interest in, for example, an independent Warlord class or an independent Psion class. But there are enough people out there who really, really want those things, that I can't justify telling them "nope, sorry, the way is shut."

 

[Minigiant]

To me the difference between the Psion and the wizard was intimate and deliberate control of the spell/power

The difference between a Psion's Far Hand and a Wizard's Mage Hand is the Psion can alter the range and weight allowance of Far Hand.