D&D General Deleted

What fantasy genre does D&D attempt to model? At this point, I feel as though D&D is pretty much its own thing. Actually, I came to that conclusion way back in 1991 when I tried using AD&D 2nd edition to run a campaign using the setting from Wheel of Time. It got 15 year old me thinking about how AD&D really didn't fit any fantasy book I had ever read. (I had never read anything by Jack Vance or Michael Moorcock so the whole origin of the law/chaos or fire & forget spells was lost on me.)

I certainly won't deny D&D was influenced by fantasy works. You can clearly see the DNA of Tolkien (despite the protestations of Gygax), Howard, and even Rowling these days. But does it emulate any of those works? I don't think so. Maybe they were aiming to model those kinds of things in 1974 but it quickly grew into its own thing.
What fantasy genre? THE fantasy genre!

Granted, even back in the 70s, the fantasy genre was broad . . . if dominated by Lord of the Rings. Gygax and the community that informed his development of D&D essentially picked and chose their favorite elements from various fantasy stories and myths to create races, classes, magical items, and monsters in the game. This somewhat arbitrary selection most certainly did make D&D its own unique take on fantasy that has evolved over the decades and in turn influenced the fantasy genre (novels, comics, movies, and games) right back.

Personally, I feel the original purpose of D&D, and the continued purpose of D&D, is to model the fantasy genre for play. But the choices made initially and over the decades has made D&D its own sub-genre of fantasy, somewhat distinct from other corners of the genre. But D&D is fluid enough to easily shift to model more specific fantasy sub-genres, as outlined in the 2014 DMG for example.
 

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In the past year or so, I have learned a lot about medieval history that I didn't know before. I'd commonly heard and spouted the phrase that D&D isn't really medieval, it's its own thing more similar to the Renaissance but is filled with anachronisms and stuff of its own inventions (obviously all the magical stuff, but also studded leather armor and similar pseudo-historical stuff). This is accurate, but I didn't understand many of the specifics aside from a few points (Rapiers, Plate Armor, etc) until recently. A lot of D&D is inspired by modern fantasy that is in turn based on aspects of the middle ages or stories from them (Mostly through Tolkien. A ton of D&D was inspired by Tolkien, who was in turn inspired by stories from the middle ages like Beowulf, Arthurian Legend, and Norse Mythology.) That is not to say that all of D&D is based on the middle ages or stories from it, there is stuff stolen from a ton of cultures and stories with varying degrees of accuracy, and of course stuff of Gygaxian invention (mimics, owlbears, displacer beasts, etc).

There is one aspect of D&D that is undoubtedly based on an aspect of the middle ages, and I think causes some issues. Paladins are undoubtedly based on stories of medieval knights, those of Arthurian Legend and stories of Charlemagne's paladins, where they get their name. While Arthurian legend as we know them today was based on earlier Brythonic stories, a major aspect of them, the stories of knights on quests traveling around killing monsters, was added later on. Medieval knights did not go on quests. Knights were the lowest form of nobility and acted as law enforcement and guards for more powerful nobles. Knights wouldn't wander the countryside on quests searching for ancient artifacts and killing dangerous beasts. They had a jobs, and no noble would just let their knights shirk their duties to explore. The closest medieval analogue to the stories of Arthurian knights going on holy quests were the Crusades, which the stories were inspired by.

Furthermore, the common image of a D&D paladin, a sword-and-board holy knight with a holy symbol on their shield is obviously based on the common image of the Knights Templar with the cross on their shield.

This type of depiction of a paladin
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was obviously inspired by this type of image
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(Not to mention that the medieval chivalric stories of Charlemagne's paladins tell tales of them fighting against Andalusian Muslims.)

The D&D paladin is rooted in the Crusades, stories based off the Crusades (Arthurian Knights) and other medieval stories about chivalric knights fighting Muslims. The "lawful good holy warriors" of D&D are based off of the knights of the middle ages that killed thousands of innocent people.

Paladins are a Christian power fantasy rooted in one of the most horrific series of wars of the Middle Ages. Since I've learned more about the Crusades and made this connection, Paladins just feel different. Ickier, for the lack of a better word. They don't feel the same as back when I was a teenager playing make believe with fantasy monsters. Knowing about the atrocities that inspired them and their representation throughout D&D history as holy warriors of good that must purge the evil just feels gross now. I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but this thread is largely about how learning about the medieval roots of paladins has sort of ruined them for me. I'm not saying that they should be removed from the game. I think that Paladins can be fixed for me if they change enough, it may require a new name and broadening/changing their identity. If they didn't borrow as much of their identity from medieval knights, it wouldn't be as much as a problem. The Oath of Heroism for example, which is more inspired by demigod heroes of Greek mythology don't have as much of the gross Crusader theme to them.

So, any suggestions? How can you have a holy warrior knight-in-shining-armor class without this connection to the Crusades and similar real world atrocities? Is the problem mainly with the paladin, or Gygax's version of always-evil races? How might Paladins be changed to make them feel less gross.

Keep in mind that this is a (+) thread. The last time I made a thread similar to this one, it got bogged down by posters telling me that the problem I was bringing up didn't exist and accusing me of being overly sensitive. If you disagree with the premise of the thread, move along. Make your own thread if you like. If threadcrapping/trolling occurs, it will of course be reported.

I don't know if it will help or not, but here's my take. I don't personally feel this way about the Paladin in particular, but I do feel something similar. I'm an atheist, and simply cannot play as a divine character myself. I'm fine with gods and religion existing in the world, and I'm fine with other players playing such characters. I just cannot personally put myself into the mindset of a true believer. Even thinking about it creeps me out a bit. Some people just can't divorce fantasy stuff from real world baggage. For me it's religion, for you it's Paladins. There is nothing wrong with that, different people see the world, and their hobbies, very differently.

Now the bit of advice I'll give on this is, talk to your group about what bothers you about the game and what your limits are. If you're open and honest you can probably come to an agreement on how to play the game and present the various fantasy aspects of the world. In my case, it would be - I will not play a divine character, and I will not play a character that is an envoy or champion of a god. Other than that, it's mostly just basic stuff like I want to play an overall heroic campaign (ie not murder hobo and angst lords). Whatever things matter to you, just have a conversation about it with your group. I can't give any examples about what to do with Paladins in particular, because that's not something I personally feel. Any solution for that is going to have to come from you.
 

@roger semerad - that is very healthy advice.

Really, no one is going to convince others of their POV. This is all connotative anyway, so, it's very fluid. What connotations one person sees, another completely doesn't. Is the dress blue and black or white and gold, to use a somewhat old example.

So, yeah, take the time to talk to your group. Although, I'm not sure the OP is particularly concerned about his or her specific group. At least, not from the posts. But, realize that just because these are the connotations you are getting, doesn't necessarily mean that others are getting the same ones. And, in the paladin's case, the connections are becoming more tenuous as time goes on. Each iteration of the paladin moves it further and further from any real connection to Christian roots.
 

true evil should be fought without mercy indeed.
This is a controversial claim both in real life, and in the context of the fiction and tropes that underpin FRPGing.

Consider, for instance, Gandalf's remarks to Frodo about whether or not Bilbo should have killed Gollum. Or Aragorn's response to those soldiers who lacked the courage to march all the way to the Black Gate.

In the first instance, JRRT uses the word "pity". In the second he uses both "pity" and "mercy".
 

As I said, one of the best things 5e did was make alignment entirely a flavor thing with no mechanical impact.
I personally think that if you do that, better to get rid of them outright.
But to me is funny because the universe remained the same, with devils, angels and demons.
 

This is a controversial claim both in real life, and in the context of the fiction and tropes that underpin FRPGing.

Consider, for instance, Gandalf's remarks to Frodo about whether or not Bilbo should have killed Gollum. Or Aragorn's response to those soldiers who lacked the courage to march all the way to the Black Gate.

In the first instance, JRRT uses the word "pity". In the second he uses both "pity" and "mercy".
See above my comment about Aragorn, already covered.
 




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