DCC Level 0 Character Funnel is a Bad Concept

[Retreater]

That’s not necessarily uncommon, with a party of four facing a single enemy. I get dither enemies are common in many games, but one designed so everyone is stronger than you so encounters require coordination amongst the party to succeed, is that like crap game design? How is playing mooks sucked into a strange universe of challenging encounters not fun? Is grinding levels on pointless encounters necessary for a fun game? Only whale hunts seems like something even you might like, why does their need to be encounters with suck ass goblins on the way to the whale?

Sure. A boss fight can be a good time.
A lot of mainstream adventures are overloaded with "insignificant" fights, but I think when done correctly (and not overdone), it's beneficial to the game. Let's consider about the importance of mooks from a storytelling and also gameplay loop perspective:
1) They can be used to telegraph the theme of the adventure and the abilities of the boss. (Some skeletons/zombies might indicate the presence of a necromancer.)
2) They can drain resources and bestow lingering conditions on the party that can add to the challenge of the boss fight.
3) They can allow the party to practice tactics to be used against bigger foes.
4) It's fun to feel competent with your character (or daresay, overpowered) from time to time
Random deaths don't contribute to this loop.

 

[overgeeked]

Sure. A boss fight can be a good time.
A lot of mainstream adventures are overloaded with "insignificant" fights, but I think when done correctly (and not overdone), it's beneficial to the game. Let's consider about the importance of mooks from a storytelling and also gameplay loop perspective:
1) They can be used to telegraph the theme of the adventure and the abilities of the boss. (Some skeletons/zombies might indicate the presence of a necromancer.)
2) They can drain resources and bestow lingering conditions on the party that can add to the challenge of the boss fight.
3) They can allow the party to practice tactics to be used against bigger foes.
4) It's fun to feel competent with your character (or daresay, overpowered) from time to time
Random deaths don't contribute to this loop.

The Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG 0-level funnel is an optional rogue-like intro / tutorial at the start of an RPG. I’m playing in one now. It absolutely does contribute in all the ways you’re saying it does not. You hate the concept and think it sucks. Got it. But throughout the thread you’ve repeatedly demonstrated that you also don’t understand it, don’t get it, and are absolutely unwilling to learn anything about it beyond your false preconceived notions. Maybe try focusing on things you actually like instead of repeatedly beating this same dead horse.

 

[bmfrosty]

Every fight should be a puzzle, and every puzzle should have multiple solutions.

 

[bmfrosty]

If you're coming from something following modern design championed by 3e, 5e, Pathfinder, etc., a lot of the challenge is unlearning the habits built there. If you have 24 characters with 6 players and you have each character and each monster go in order, you aren't doing it right. I have 2-3 initiative slots - I have the the players roll against the a static DC (10 + monster initiative bonus). The players who beat it go at the top of the round in whatever order they choose, the monsters go, and then the rest of the players go. I sometimes have them reroll every round.

 

[Lanefan]

Sure. A boss fight can be a good time.
A lot of mainstream adventures are overloaded with "insignificant" fights, but I think when done correctly (and not overdone), it's beneficial to the game. Let's consider about the importance of mooks from a storytelling and also gameplay loop perspective:
1) They can be used to telegraph the theme of the adventure and the abilities of the boss. (Some skeletons/zombies might indicate the presence of a necromancer.)
2) They can drain resources and bestow lingering conditions on the party that can add to the challenge of the boss fight.
3) They can allow the party to practice tactics to be used against bigger foes.
4) It's fun to feel competent with your character (or daresay, overpowered) from time to time
Random deaths don't contribute to this loop.

Random death comes under "2) ... drain resources ...".

Also, as @overgeeked noted, you need to approach a funnel as a rogue-like - the whole point is to see how far your characters get before they die, on the built-in assumption that yes, they're all gonna die. And then, if one or two manage to survive anyway, it's a win!

Going in on the assumption that your character(s) will survive is the wrong approach; and I posit that D&D in all versions would be better were this assumption also made redundant there.

 

[Retreater]

I find that Rogue-like games are better handled by video games that can be reset with a "start over button."
For something that requires planning, preparation, organizing players, purchasing funky dice, purchasing/reading/studying a massive rulebook, I would want an experience better than a "laugh at the funny ways our characters died in a one shot."
It's like using fine ground beef, artisan bread, heirloom veggies to make a Big Mac. It's inefficient and not worth the squeeze.

 

[Arilyn]

The survivors then go on to level one with their 0 level hp added in and proficiency in any starting weapons and armour they have from 0 level. I had a wizard who could use a longsword because he had it in the funnel. The perk for funnel survivors is starting a little bit tougher at level 1.

 

[Lanefan]

I find that Rogue-like games are better handled by video games that can be reset with a "start over button."
For something that requires planning, preparation, organizing players, purchasing funky dice, purchasing/reading/studying a massive rulebook, I would want an experience better than a "laugh at the funny ways our characters died in a one shot."

Except it's not a one-shot.

My current campaign had a rather rogue-like start to it; as in they dropped like flies for the first couple of years.

That was 16 years ago. Game's still going.

As long as there's at least one survivor the rebuilt party - and thus the game, which tells the story of said party - can and does continue.

It's like using fine ground beef, artisan bread, heirloom veggies to make a Big Mac. It's inefficient and not worth the squeeze.

Not sure I follow this analogy. Elaborate, please?

 

[overgeeked]

The survivors then go on to level one with their 0 level hp added in and proficiency in any starting weapons and armour they have from 0 level. I had a wizard who could use a longsword because he had it in the funnel. The perk for funnel survivors is starting a little bit tougher at level 1.

Yep. DCC is very much an emergent play game. Wild and weird things happen and it's fantastic. I'll say it again, it's one of the reasons I love DCC, especially the magic system. It's all about the chaos and it's practically impossible for the Judge to railroad. Such a fantastic game.

Except it's not a one-shot.

My current campaign had a rather rogue-like start to it; as in they dropped like flies for the first couple of years.

That was 16 years ago. Game's still going.

As long as there's at least one survivor the rebuilt party - and thus the game, which tells the story of said party - can and does continue.

Exactly. It's the old-school mindset vs the newer mindset. In old-school play, the group is the thing. As long as the group can continue, everything's fine. Individual characters dying is irrelevant. In newer play, the individual PC is the thing. As long as the individual PC survives, everything's fine. It makes for an incredibly limited set of options, and, quite frankly, I find it boring as hell. "Anything can happen...as long as nothing bad happens to the PCs." Yawn.

 

[Retreater]

Not sure I follow this analogy. Elaborate, please?

Our time we get together weekly (biweekly, etc) with potentially some of our best friends to create stories worthy of remembrance is limited. Spending it in a meat grinder of death largely played for comedic effect isn't what I'd choose to do.
(Goodman is also the same company that just made a hardcover commemorative re-release of Grimtooth's Traps, so that kinda says the mentality of their design.)
Even beyond the funnel, their art is of the nasty variety of a 1970s pizza place that's never been updated, their gimmick dice roll terribly and are unnecessary for the system, the book is bloated and sloppy with pointless charts.

Exactly. It's the old-school mindset vs the newer mindset. In old-school play, the group is the thing. As long as the group can continue, everything's fine. Individual characters dying is irrelevant. In newer play, the individual PC is the thing. As long as the individual PC survives, everything's fine. It makes for an incredibly limited set of options, and, quite frankly, I find it boring as hell. "Anything can happen...as long as nothing bad happens to the PCs." Yawn.

If you are talking about me, I can assure you I'm considered a Killer DM by my players. They get no social treatment. I've probably killed more characters than the average poster on here.
I just don't do it in character funnels.