NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[Thomas Shey]

Well, as I posted not far upthread, for me and my group it wasn't about rules enforcement but rather about good roleplaying (as we thought of it back then).

Its a viable method if you have a whole group who are onboard it. Its just that in many groups that's a big ask.

 

[Fenris-77]

Well, as I posted not far upthread, for me and my group it wasn't about rules enforcement but rather about good roleplaying (as we thought of it back then).

I don't think this is really a topic that adimts of a easy binary solution set.

 

[pemerton]

I am MUCH more ok with rules that apply penalties if you behave in certain ways. (TOR is another example of this.). Just as long as it's the player's choice what to do, I'm ok with it.

This is how Apocalypse World handles it - the resolution of Seduce/Manipulate differs whether it is a NPC or a PC who is the target, and if it's a PC then they get the carrot (XP if they do as asked) or the stick (suffer a debuff if acting contrary to what was asked) or both (if the roll against them is successful enough).

 

[Thomas Shey]

I am MUCH more ok with rules that apply penalties if you behave in certain ways. (TOR is another example of this.). Just as long as it's the player's choice what to do, I'm ok with it.

I suspect that's a superior approach, but it doesn't seem extremely common, probably because its not as simple as binary yes-no, and defining the proper degree of penalties so it genuinely pushes people in that direction without, effectively, just forcing it in a disingenuous way is hard.

 

[pemerton]

I don't think this is really a topic that adimts of a easy binary solution set.

Maybe - but back then we weren't familiar with the wide range of possibilities in social resolution (even though Prince Valiant existed, I had never read it let alone played it). And didn't have an especially sophisticated understanding of system as a key analytical term for discussing RPGing. So we wouldn't have thought of a player who ignored the NPC's Duping result as breaking the rules but more like being a bad sport, being a bad roleplayer, etc.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I've got a few people in the group I run who play their characters like this. The player might thing something is suspicious, but if the character doesn't have a clue they'll just head right into the situation without a second thought. I like this kind of player, they make things more fun.

I'll also add that despite my stance about player agency, there are certainly LOTS of times I roleplay my character suboptimally in spite of my own knowledge. I just want it to be my choice, not mandate from the table/DM.

 

[pemerton]

Its a viable method if you have a whole group who are onboard it. Its just that in many groups that's a big ask.

Here I'm 100% with @Bill Zebub - play with people who are happy to play the game that you want to play!

(Which doesn't have to be the same game all the time. In the past few years, my group has played Torchbearer - which does have binding social resolution for PCs - and Classic Traveller, which doesn't, outside of its morale rules which affect PCs as well as NPCs.)

 

[Thomas Shey]

Here I'm 100% with @Bill Zebub - play with people who are happy to play the game that you want to play!

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Even barring my response to him, sometimes you have to make compromises in some areas to get what you want in others.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The problem is that often there's an issue of why the NPC is there at all, and people's sense of what purpose they're probably serving. Just like TV shows or movies (and to far less a degree in books) you only have a limited amount of time to do what you need to do in an adventure, and while you may toss out some NPCs just for color, most are going to serve a purpose, and it can be hard for people with the right mindset not to spot the purpose. You see this in well crafted TV shows when the writers throw out a red herring or two (but often they aren't subtle enough to make it actually work reliably).

You can use the narrative expectation to obfuscate the truth as well though. Have the NPC fit an obvious narrative trope, but that is just their cover and their real purpose is something else.

 

[payn]

Any with a Performance skill. There might not be much to it, but its there.

In the case of 5E, id argue thats a ruling, and not a rule, which is the intended use of the system. I dont see anything indicating it provides a direct value the target must accept, so another ruling. I wouldnt agree any of it is technically correct tho.