NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[aramis erak]

I'm wondering if some of this difference in opinion has its roots in the degree to which our enjoyment of RPGs derives from the pleasure we get, or the importance we place on, performing for others at the table.

I'm not there for the performances. I'm there for the resulting story as constructed in the mind after play, and for those game aspects during play. Many times, I'd prefer the players NOT try to be actors. Most absolutely suck at acting, but many are much better at making choices based upon their character's role in the fiction.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I'm not there for the performances. I'm there for the resulting story as constructed in the mind after play, and for those game aspects during play. Many times, I'd prefer the players NOT try to be actors. Most absolutely suck at acting, but many are much better at making choices based upon their character's role in the fiction.

100% agree.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So any time you talk to NPCs you have to start rolling dice?

I wasn’t asking when to follow the dice, I was asking when to take agency away from players and give it to dice.

I'm asking when do you allow NPC social skills to have the teeth (at least to some degree) PC social skills do. My answer is whenever dice are called for and the NPC wins. Framing that with the extreme stance of taking away the player's agency altogether is not what I'm advocating.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I'm asking when do you allow NPC social skills to have the teeth (at least to some degree) PC social skills do. My answer is whenever dice are called for and the NPC wins. Framing that with the extreme stance of taking away the player's agency altogether is not what I'm advocating.

Ok, then that gets us to the question about when an interaction requires dice, and for that I'll refer you to the much longer post I made. If we are looking for symmetry between PCs and NPCs, then in the absence of a full "social combat system" that defines difficulty levels, it seems to me that if DMs call for dice and set DCs when their characters are the targets, then players should get to call for dice and set DCs when their characters are the targets.

Thoughts?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Sorry, I missed that. I know you support mechanics that encourage but don’t require behaviors, but I didn’t see where you suggested how to determine when that gets used. How do you decide, in a way that is consistent to the players, when to evoke such mechanics?

Success on influence checks. Heck, if you wanted you could roll my two suggestions together and let the target player set target numbers/modifiers too. The apply various type of penalties or benefits if the character goes with the influence or not. This leaves the influence skills with teeth, but doesn't actually take control away from the player; it simply requires them to be determined that not going with it is the appropriate choice (at which point the penalties represent some internal conflict on it).

 

[Thomas Shey]

So any time you talk to NPCs you have to start rolling dice?

I wasn’t asking when to follow the dice, I was asking when to take agency away from players and give it to dice.

When there's an active attempt to influence someone away from their apparent course beyond simply presenting facts? There's a lot of reasons to talk to NPCs where that wouldn't apply. A GM isn't forced to do a roll here than any number of other events, after all. You're not required to have someone roll to climb a ladder, just because climb rolls are sometimes made.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok, then that gets us to the question about when an interaction requires dice, and for that I'll refer you to the much longer post I made. If we are looking for symmetry between PCs and NPCs, then in the absence of a full "social combat system" that defines difficulty levels, it seems to me that if DMs call for dice and set DCs when their characters are the targets, then players should get to call for dice and set DCs when their characters are the targets.

Thoughts?

I'm not wholly against it. It would be nice to show trust in your players the way players worry about trusting their DM.

 

[Hriston]

But if you as a GM are yourself a gifted actor and entertainer and have crafted by some means a skillful script or monologue whether improvised or planned, and the players react to that NPC as being a likeable, funny, witty and so forth, then you don't have to tell the players how to react. They'll react as would be natural to a person who is likeable, funny, witty, and so forth.

Does not matter what is on the NPC's character sheet, as a GM you can only achieve that by doing the performance yourself. I can say in my notes, "The NPC is funny", but that's a useless note. The NPC is funny if the player's perception of him is that he's funny, and crafting that requires more than a note unless you are a genius comic yourself.

There is in the process of play a big difference between showing and telling, just as there is in different narrative mediums. You can never achieve the effect of telling that you could by showing, and skills and dice rolls can't replace that.

Why would I have (or want) to tell the players how to react in any case? What you’re describing is just another way of telling them about the environment. They still get to decide how the PCs react.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

When there's an active attempt to influence someone away from their apparent course beyond simply presenting facts?

Many effective persuasion attempts are perceived as by the one being persuaded as someone "simply presenting facts."

 

[Aldarc]

Yes. The correct one. Alternatively you can get rid of social skills altogether.

The problem therein can be that it becomes more about the player trying to convince the GM rather than the PC trying to convince the NPC. I would prefer to play a character interacting with the world with their particular abilities rather than a player interacting directly with the GM. That would likely draw me out of character and break my own immersion.

So any time you talk to NPCs you have to start rolling dice?

I wasn’t asking when to follow the dice, I was asking when to take agency away from players and give it to dice.

I'm not sure if this sort of loaded framing is particularly helpful.