NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[pemerton]

Note that the rule doesn't reference NPCs...

<snip>

Classic Traveller is the only game I'm aware of where only players are mentioned in the morale rules...
(noting that animals have a different morale equivalent.)
Not that any Traveller ref I've known has limited it to PCs...

I think even when I was quite young, in the late 70s/early 80s, I assumed that the rules also applied to NPCs. Partly because of the reference to military units, which didn't seem straightforwardly applicable to PCs.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Oh, but spells are fine tho...

If the rules tell you what your character must think or do, then that feels like mind control to me. If it is actual mind control, then that seems appropriate.

That being said, i don't like using mind control magic against PCs, and I often swap such enemy spells and abilities to something else. Not saying that I never do it, but it is very rare in my campaign.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Spells are fine. The reason is that players accept that magic can do these things. Magic is magic. Words are nothing but words. For instance, there's nothing you could possibly say to me in person that would get me to lose control of my emotions. There nothing you could say to me to make me give you my D&D stuff. Magic might be able to.

With magic the choice isn't mine. With your words, the choice is 100% mine.

i don't know why you simply don't extend your ironclad control of your characters own emotions and agency to resist the effects of the magic, "i just don't see my mental model of my character succumbing to the effects of the spell so i make my saving throw without rolling and it has no effect on me"

i don't see why it makes a difference if the influence is coming from words or magic.

 

[Maxperson]

i don't know why you simply don't extend your ironclad control of your characters own emotions and agency to resist the effects of the magic, "i just don't see my mental model of my character succumbing to the effects of the spell so i make my saving throw without rolling and it has no effect on me"

i don't see why it makes a difference if the influence is coming from words or magic.

Because magic actually has power to force control or change over another. Words do not. You are telling me that you can't see the difference between an apple and an orange.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Because magic actually has power to force control or change over another. Words do not. You are telling me that you can't see the difference between an apple and an orange.

on the other hand, you're telling me that words don't have the power to convince anyone of anything, that people have total intentional control over every single emotional response they feel, when people get angry or sad in response to something it isn't because they've decided to think 'i'm going to feel angry because of that', history is full of words making people feels stuff.

 

[Maxperson]

on the other hand, you're telling me that words don't have the power to convince anyone of anything, that people have total intentional control over every single emotional response they feel, when people get angry or sad in response to something it isn't because they've decided to think 'i'm going to feel angry because of that', history is full of words making people feels stuff.

Because they chose to believe those words. Others chose not to believe those words. None of them were forced to believe or not believe those words. You are ascribing magical power to something that has no real power to force belief.

 

[Theory of Games]

social manipulation enters the chat

 

[payn]

on the other hand, you're telling me that words don't have the power to convince anyone of anything, that people have total intentional control over every single emotional response they feel, when people get angry or sad in response to something it isn't because they've decided to think 'i'm going to feel angry because of that', history is full of words making people feels stuff.

Not only that, but people are only fooled by words if they choose to be apparently. Which is really dumb, why would anybody ever choose to be deceived? Thats the entire point of deception is that you were mislead and didnt catch on to the fact.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

on the other hand, you're telling me that words don't have the power to convince anyone of anything, that people have total intentional control over every single emotional response they feel, when people get angry or sad in response to something it isn't because they've decided to think 'i'm going to feel angry because of that', history is full of words making people feels stuff.

Yes. And the GM as the NPC needs to speak those words. And the player as the PC needs to be affected by them.

I don't understand what is so hard to understand about this. NPCs affect the PCs in my game all the time, it just is via roleplaying, not via dice rolls.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes. And the GM as the NPC needs to speak those words. And the player as the PC needs to be affected by them.

I don't understand what is so hard to understand about this. NPCs affect the PCs in my game all the time, it just is via roleplaying, not via dice rolls.

Which begs the question of why PCs get to use dice rolls to affect NPCs, if the reverse is not true.