NPC Deception/Persuasion and player agency

[Wolfpack48]

Writers of stories are almost writing always characters that do things they would never do themselves. They write characters who are deceived in ways they themselves would never be deceived. Perhaps that kind of separation (within the bounds of decency) is a productive way of thinking about it.

 

[Theory of Games]

Yes. Major ick. Imagine a male GM using this sort of mechanic on a female PC of a female player.

Sadly, we don't have to imagine it

 

[TwoSix]

Furthermore, I have hard time believing you regarding long term goals too. If a NPC lady can via mechanics cause a PC knight fall in love with them, then how does this not directly affect the goals the player is going to set?

The whole point of playing a game with goals is that the condition exists that those goals can be failed.

And in a game with randomness (i.e. dice rolls), we also accept that goals may be failed precisely because of the random element.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Are you fine with magic cutting off short and long term agency?

Long term agency no, short term agency yes, but rarely. Like I said before, I am not fan of mind control magic, I often change such powers and spells to something else on the NPCs.

 

[payn]

Writers of stories are almost writing always characters that do things they would never do themselves. They write characters who are deceived in ways they themselves would never be deceived. Perhaps that kind of separation (within the bounds of decency) is a productive way of thinking about it.

Yeap. I take it as an approach in really exploring a character within the milleau of the game. I get for other people its more of a power fantasy and NPCs are just there to provide the background. That doesnt hold my interest.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The whole point of playing a game with goals is that the condition exists that those goals can be failed.

And in a game with randomness (i.e. dice rolls), we also accept that goals may be failed precisely because of the random element.

But we are not talking about the goals failing, we are talking about getting to set those goals in the first place.

 

[Maxperson]

@Micah Sweet was replying to @Maxperson, who is saying that the target of deception (the PC or NPC) does have a choice as to whether or not to believe the trickster. So on this (in my view implausible) account of human cognition, the player's choice corresponds directly to their character's choice. And the question being asked is, why is there no such corresponding choice to be made by the GM (assuming that the GM, in playing their NPC, follows the outcome of the player's social skill roll).

So you've never chosen to believe or not believe what someone has told you? It's outside your ability to make a decision?

 

[TwoSix]

But we are not talking about the goals failing, we are talking about getting to set those goals in the first place.

What, exactly, in your extensive experience playing those games, makes you believe that the players don't get to set goals in the first place?

A PC making decisions contrary to their goal because of dice results is very different from the player not being able to set goals.

As a player, my goal might be for my PC to be viewed as a chaste paragon of morality; but in the end, we play to find out. Sometimes, as a player, I fail!

 

[Maxperson]

EDIT:
Suppose a game has a DEX-check, Balance skill or similar sort of resolution framework for resolving my PC walking a tightrope, or fighting on a cliff-edge, or similar. No matter how much my "mental model" of my PC has it that they are poised, graceful and unflappable, the outcomes of that resolution framework make it possible that my PC will take a tumble.

Now that tumble might be narrated in different ways - maybe my guy fights with all the skill of the Man in Black, but an even better swordsman forces my guy to the edge of, and then over the cliff; or maybe, especially if the mood of the table is more light-hearted, my guy slips from the tightrope, falls into the river, and looks a bit of a dunce.

I see the seduction example the same way: Sir Morgath, despite his resolution to remain faithful to his wife Elizabeth, finds himself simply unable to resist the charming and beautiful Lady Lorette; Sir Gerren, the day before he is to enter into a political marriage which it is agreed will remain unconsummated, throws care to the wind and enjoys a romp in the bushes with the same Lady.

The player doesn't always get to decide whether their PC, in actuality, lives up to the ideal or image they have for them.

Agency is what a player has his PC believes and what actions he takes.

In all social situations, since agency is belief, I have to have complete choice or my agency is gone.

With the dex check, I can decide my PC think he will 100% succeed, possibly succeed or fail, or 100% has no chance. My agency is preserved with regard to deciding what the PC believes. Now to agency in deciding what the PC does. What he does is try to walk a tightrope. Does he try to walk a tightrope? Yes that is the action he takes. Success or failure isn't an action. That's action resolution, which is not a part of player agency.

Telling the player that his PC can't try to walk the tightrope is a no no, since it removes his agency. Telling him that the result of his attempt to walk the tightrope is that he falls, is not a no no, since action resolution does not take away player agency.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

What, exactly, in your extensive experience playing those games, makes you believe that the players don't get to set goals in the first place?

A PC making decisions contrary to their goal because of dice results is very different from the player not being able to set goals.

As a player, my goal might be for my PC to be viewed as a chaste paragon of morality; but in the end, we play to find out. Sometimes, as a player, I fail!

It is simple logic. If NPC can convince PCs via social rules, then it follows they can influence the goals of the PC. There is no way around it.

If a NPC can convince the PC that doing X is a good idea, then it follows that NPC can set doing X as the goal of the PC. It is inescapable.